1st Infantry Divisions 1st Carbines?!
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
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Forum Name: Newsworthy Items
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Topic: 1st Infantry Divisions 1st Carbines?!
Posted By: Newsman1
Subject: 1st Infantry Divisions 1st Carbines?!
Date Posted: Sep 01 2016 at 11:14am
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August 2016-A THE FIRST INFANTRY DIVISION’S FIRST CARBINES ?! Our thanks to Don Hillhouse for uncovering correspondence from the 1st Infantry Division’s “G-3 Diary.” Based at Indiantown Gap Military Reservation in Pennsylvania during the summer of 1942, “The Big Red One” was one of the American units that participated in the first Allied invasion of Europe (in North Africa) in November of that year. The Division shipped out two weeks after these documents were written. Excerpts are below. Editor’s notes are in parentheses. 10 July 42. G-3 (Division Operations) notified by G-4 (Division Supply) that 1st Infantry Division has just received 1500 carbines, cal 30. G-4 stated the Div might be completely equipped with carbines prior to embarkation. 11 July 42. Capt. Bennett notified G-4 and DOO (most likely means Division Ordnance Officer) that Lt. Batori, Asst DOO, had asked him to notify them that a message had been received from Capt. Morgan, Washington, D.C. stating that there was going to be a production lag in manufacture of carbines. 800 delivered to us immediately, 1529 will be held up 3 or 4 days, then the full production quota will be given to us. (In July 1942, these would obviously all be of Inland manufacture and blued/ black oxide with green/gray Parkerized slides.) Col. Campbell, DOO, informed Capt. Bennett that the 1st Div was going to get some carbine ammunition from Raritan Arsenal today, probably about 15 rds per carbine for familiarization purposes. 13 July 42. G-3 called DOO, re: technical information as to how much rear sight of Carbine will have to be tapped to move strike of bullet a minute of angle at 200 yards. (Answer is .012 or 12 thousandths of an inch at 200 yards). G-3 conferred with D.A. (possibly Division Artillery), re: distribution of Carbine. G-3 said that distribution was going to be by units and not by “driblets.” G-3 received notification that 25,000 rds Carbine Cal .30 ammunition was received this AM. Col. Mason stated he would make the breakdown. 20 July 42. DOO reported in early PM that the following carbines have been distributed to date: 16th Infantry (Regiment) 838 Div HQ Co (Company) 220 18th Infantry (Regiment) 219 26th Infantry (Regiment) 200 22 July 42. DOO conferred with G-3 re: carbines issued to units of Div. To date 1530 carbines have been issued. DOO conferred with a captain of 33rd FA (Field Artillery) re: ammunition for carbines as well as carbines. G-3 advised him to borrow carbines from a rifle regiment. (It would appear that the Field Artillerymen wanted carbines for familiarization/qualification purposes. Later in the war, the artillery units were authorized the greatest concentration of carbines in an infantry division. 27 July 42. Col. Campbell, DOO reported to Capt. Bennett that Post Ordnance had a shipping order for 4,983 carbines which have not arrived. 28 July 42. Capt. Bennett overheard Col. Mason, Acting Chief of Staff say that a certain unit of the 1st Inf Div was going to receive 500 additional carbines on Thursday 30 July 42. The name of the unit was not made known to Capt. Bennett. (A related document lists the quantity of 1st Infantry Division’s small arms that were repaired by their organic 1st Ordnance Light Maintenance Company, following combat in Tunisia during the period January 18 to March 21, 1943. Of interest to collectors, the repaired rifles included 3195 M1s, 2469 M1903s, and only 353 Carbines. This seems to indicate that the quantity of ‘03s used in combat was quite large, while the quantity of Carbines in the hands of 1st Division troops might not have been anywhere near their authorized allowance of approximately 5000. This could also mean that carbines saw little combat during the North African campaign.) At the end of the North African campaign on 1 August 1943, the First Infantry Division G-4 reported “After 5 months of continuous combat, the equipment of the Division, particularly motor vehicles, weapons, and communication equipment, required complete overhaul by 3rd and 4th echelon maintenance, during which a great quantity was salvaged and replaced.” Marty Black
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Replies:
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 14 2017 at 2:48pm
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According to WB 362 carbines were delivered in June 1942. In July 1942 2,642 were delivered. I believe the earliest barrel date is 5-42. I think some 6-42 barrel dates might be in the early Cannon Company carbines. So it is possible this is one of them. It definitely saw service right through Korea.  Feel free to share your early barrel dates with serial numbers here. 518
------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Nevinator
Date Posted: Jan 30 2018 at 5:06pm
| Great story! My carbine bearing serial number 342 would have likely been one of the rifles issued to the 1st ID. Another piece of history! Thanks for the great report on this unit. |
Posted By: am913 oron
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 9:46am
| My dad was with the 32nd FA and qualified on Carbine Rifle SS 176 14May43 per his records. But, I believe he was already using a carbine first entering North Africa. Good story and info, sad, I never learned of his carbine serial number(s) prior to his death. Thank you. |
Posted By: Nevinator
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 10:18am
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Here’s some additional information about the 1st ID. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Division_" rel="nofollow - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Division_ (United_States) |
Posted By: Dave Tennent
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 9:13pm
Inland 2730 has a 6-42 barrel date.  ------------- Dave |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 9:55pm
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Shes a beauty! ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Nevinator
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 10:48pm
| Gorgeous! |
Posted By: carbinecanuck
Date Posted: Feb 15 2018 at 11:16pm
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Any more pictures available? That was just a tease! ------------- Courage is fear holding on a minute longer. - GEORGE S. PATTON |
Posted By: Dave Tennent
Date Posted: Feb 16 2018 at 10:08am
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2730 has a unique barrel band repair. In the second photo note the break in the metal right at the bend. Also note the letter "A" stamped in the I-cut. I don't think anyone knows the reason for this. It was rumored that this carbine was a "range gun" which might explain the horrific muzzle wear. Later, Dave         ------------- Dave |
Posted By: carbinecanuck
Date Posted: Feb 16 2018 at 2:34pm
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Very nice pictures. What a great, early example. Thanks for sharing. ------------- Courage is fear holding on a minute longer. - GEORGE S. PATTON |
Posted By: Abel4287
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 10:04am
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Inland 1652 dated 6-42   ------------- USMC 2111 |
Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 10:35am
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Boy! You guys are making me feel like my early 5 digit is a really late carbine, 7-42 barrel not withstanding! ------------- OGCA Life member NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 11:59am
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@ Smokepole, Check CCNL 268. It seems there were 4 digit carbines with 5-42 dates as well as 3 digit carbines with 6-42 dates. There was also a 3 digit with a 8-42 date. I am sure I am not telling you anything new that early on it is the bbl date to look at. Remember that the 1st got 1500 carbine, but there were 3000 delivered by July 1942. So they were probably a mix of 3 and 4 digit serial numbers ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 12:22pm
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Dan - when you get a chance please post whatever pics you feel are most appropriate for this Thread of my Inland 270. I know you'll crop them down and be able to best describe what's being shown. Thank you Sir!
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 1:39pm
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Another aspect of the delivery is that it would seem that we know at least some of the first 1500 production carbines went elsewhere. Right? For example Inland 931. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/feature-inland-931-first-commando-fiji-guerillas_topic5057.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/feature-inland-931-first-commando-fiji-guerillas_topic5057.html I dont know if there is still a way to track early shipment quantities to allies and so forth.
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Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 10:30pm
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It reasonable that at least some of the early stamped 1500 receivers that Inland produced would have had to be pulled out of the standard production line to receive either additional Quality assurance checks or Testing and then once deemed good to go they would have been placed back in the standard production pipeline, but that of course would make them out of receiver number sequence given the rapid production and vast numbers ramp up in Mid-late 1942 and this may be how #931 with its 6-42 barrel ended up going to a Unit other than the 1st Infantry Division. By early 1943 there were two newly formed US Army Divisions plus a Marine Regiment (44,000 Troops) in the Solomon Islands who would have been issued over 14,000 M1 Carbines between them and this is where and when the article says this New Zealand Commando linked up with US Forces so he either acquired this #931 Carbine by US Govt design or by his own personal ingenuity and initiative, most likely the later :-)
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Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Sep 26 2021 at 8:12am
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Per Dan's suggestion to share likely 1st Infantry Division pics here are my two; Inland 270 with 5-42 barrel.   Inland 3446 with 6-42 barrel.   Correct earliest Inland Stock.  |