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Serial Numbers to Look for and Report

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Club Requests and Member Submissions
Forum Description: Submissions, Spotters Reports, Documents, Sharp Eyes Dept.
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1292
Printed Date: Oct 24 2021 at 10:19pm
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Topic: Serial Numbers to Look for and Report
Posted By: Lupus Dei
Subject: Serial Numbers to Look for and Report
Date Posted: Mar 04 2016 at 12:24am
March 2016-G

   http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/CCNLs/316g.pdf" rel="nofollow -

SERIAL NUMBERS TO LOOK FOR AND REPORT

While collectors have learned much over the years about the quantities and variations of carbines and related accessories that were produced, more can still be learned in some areas. At the end of 2015 the Carbine Club had on record over 75,000 carbine serial numbers that had been reported from various sources. This is not a large sample of the total carbine production, but is enough to give a general picture of the usage of serial numbers and the scarcity of some carbines. It is recognized that most carbine contracts were terminated before the contractors used all the serial numbers they had been assigned. Some contractors apparently skipped groups of numbers within a serial number block, for undocumented reasons. Below is a list showing the serial number ranges where no numbers have been reported, or the information is too scant or may be erroneous.

 

 

 

 

 

 
In addition to the serial number ranges shown above, there are other things that can be watched for and reported to help expand and improve the knowledge base. Unusual receiver markings, such as letters in the serial number area on the receiver, or names lined out, should be reported even though the carbine might be a "mixmaster". Rare models, such as those marked T3 or T4, and experimental or presentation carbines should be reported. Fakes are common, and repro parts, including barrels, barrel bands, flip sights, etc. are readily available. If possible, get photos of rare items.

J.B. Powers                                  

Carbine Club Newsletter 357 features a comprehensive in-depth statistical analysis of all serial number ranges, the result of more than 30 years of data collecting by members, and written by J.B. Powers. In my opinion, it is the most significant series of articles ever published by anyone on carbine production, in regards to serial numbers used and quantities produced.

Marty Black                                          

former Carbine Club Newsletter Editor
 

 

                           



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Louis Dey
Admin
www.uscarbinecal30.com/forums



Replies:
Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Mar 05 2016 at 4:40pm
I have Rock-Ola 16728xx that seems to be in the range listed . This rifle is the highest serial # range that I have ever seen for springtube variation ..


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 06 2016 at 2:14pm
Rcycles,
Fantastic, love hearing about something not previously reported
Is that a type 2?
Have you submitted a data sheet?
 
 


Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Mar 06 2016 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


Rcycles,
Fantastic, love hearing about something not previously reported
Is that a type 2?
Have you submitted a data sheet?
 
 

This is a type 1 variation B springtube . I will be submitting a data sheet on it .


Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 11 2016 at 4:15am
Thanks Rcycles45 ! I'd love to see a photo of the serial number as well as the right side of the receiver (the spring tube area). Your report is the first one received on these "missing" serial numbers! Thanks much!

If the barrel is dated, we'd like to have that information also.

Regards, Marty Black

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Marty Black


Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Mar 12 2016 at 8:46pm
Marty here are some pictures , Barrel is dated 3-43 . If you need any other pics just let me know . I'm still working on trying do resize pics to upload here .

http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/rcycles45/library/1672810%20Rock-Ola" rel="nofollow - http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/rcycles45/library/1672810%20Rock-Ola


Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 18 2016 at 1:27pm
Thanks Rcyles! Great pics, fantastic early Rock-Ola carbine! Certainly the nicest early RMC I've ever seen...and I lived in the Chicago area for over 30 years!

And thanks for helping us fine-tune the transition from T2 to T3 receivers. You've helped us fill in another little piece of the production puzzle. Yet, we've still got about 3500 "missing" numbers higher than your's, before the T3s are first reported. We'll have to keep looking and reporting.

I would strongly encourage you to do a Featured Carbine on this gun for the benefit of the forum members. That carbine is full of very rare parts, and we can learn a lot from it.

Say, does the stock have the little cut-out on the inside to accommodate the little tab on the type 1 spring tube? See the Featured Carbine QHMC 4645574 if you are not sure what I'm talking about. I suspect it does, since your photos showed the type 1 tab facing downward.

Great posting of pics, thanks! Fantastic carbine!

Regards, Marty Black



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Marty Black


Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Mar 23 2016 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Marty Black Marty Black wrote:

Thanks Rcyles! Great pics, fantastic early Rock-Ola carbine! Certainly the nicest early RMC I've ever seen...and I lived in the Chicago area for over 30 years!

And thanks for helping us fine-tune the transition from T2 to T3 receivers. You've helped us fill in another little piece of the production puzzle. Yet, we've still got about 3500 "missing" numbers higher than your's, before the T3s are first reported. We'll have to keep looking and reporting.

I would strongly encourage you to do a Featured Carbine on this gun for the benefit of the forum members. That carbine is full of very rare parts, and we can learn a lot from it.

Say, does the stock have the little cut-out on the inside to accommodate the little tab on the type 1 spring tube? See the Featured Carbine QHMC 4645574 if you are not sure what I'm talking about. I suspect it does, since your photos showed the type 1 tab facing downward.

Great posting of pics, thanks! Fantastic carbine!

Regards, Marty Black

Thanks Marty , Glad I could help out , like I said I haven't come across a Rock-Ola springtube receiver with a higher serial number then this one .This carbine has been restored some what and yes the stock has the spring tube notch cut out .



Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 9:29am
Underwood-B (Singer) 2683573 was on GB not long ago.  It was a mix-master with an Underwood barrel, but date of barrel was not listed or legible in photos.

UPDATE 2/7/21:  I had written down in my notes that the barrel on this B carbine was “unknown”, but at the time I wrote this post, thought I recalled that it was an Underwood based on a photo from the side of the barrel.  Dan actually had a copy of the GB posting that went through to the end of the auction which did have a photo of the top of the barrel.  The barrel was, in fact, a Winchester with stamped “W” and Winchester stamped barrel cartouche.




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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 12 2021 at 12:21pm
Good Reporting, 5 points!


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: HARLEY08
Date Posted: Feb 12 2021 at 12:57pm
I have a late 7 million WRA that I could send you a data sheet -72736--
Also need to know where to get some parts for an Unquality
Dave
fxstbharley2008@yahoo.com


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M1DB


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Mar 29 2021 at 3:10pm
I found an Underwood WTA, serial number 2405154 on the S/N Spread Sheet. It's CMP completed auction listing #1790.

https://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=1790&n=M1-Carbine-Underwood-WTA-Code-Double-Stamped-SN-2405154" rel="nofollow - https://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=1790&n=M1-Carbine-Underwood-WTA-Code-Double-Stamped-SN-2405154

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JackP


Posted By: Beezer
Date Posted: Mar 29 2021 at 8:39pm
I have an Underwood B 2642731 10/43 Underwood barrel


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 29 2021 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by Beezer Beezer wrote:

I have an Underwood B 2642731 10/43 Underwood barrel

Check the serial numbers page. Your Singer made receiver for Underwood is in the known range. The list above is ranges of serial numbers that in 40 years of collecting information we have not found.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html#subcontracted" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html#subcontracted


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Posted By: Beezer
Date Posted: Mar 30 2021 at 6:20am
Doh, I read the list wrong. 


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 19 2021 at 3:35pm
Marcus, do you still have Underwood to Winchester (W) serial number 2491972 in your collection? That's in the "Contract Terminated" range.



Edit to Add: Marcus replied with a gallery of 92 photos!

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JackP


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 29 2021 at 12:33am
I have a Quality Hardware which seems to be on your list. #4761744


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 29 2021 at 9:31am
Billy, The QHMC range is 4.71 to 4.74 that we are looking for.
We would still be interested in hearing about your carbine!


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Jun 06 2021 at 10:26pm
I just got what has so far been objectively believed to be an as issued 5.855 mil S.G. Carbine. I’ve posted on cmp and usmilitaria. I have not completely stripped it down and photographed it but I will when I’m back home. I hope what I find will help out with some of the missing data. 

Edit: well I just scanned the list again and it appears my serial number is just shy of what we’re looking for! 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 06 2021 at 10:42pm
Connor,
5mil, nice! I keep missing out on one for my collection.

Any info on a possible original is good info, please do submit a datasheet.
These can be found in the forum section that says datasheets.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/data-sheets-newsletter-back-issues-indexes_forum42.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/data-sheets-newsletter-back-issues-indexes_forum42.html

There is a current thread talking about slingwell markings where your info would be appreciated. 
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/ruth-sg-stock-marked-oi-40a-found-oi-39a_topic5164.html#42481" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/ruth-sg-stock-marked-oi-40a-found-oi-39a_topic5164.html#42481


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Jun 06 2021 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Connor,
5mil, nice! I keep missing out on one for my collection.

Any info on a possible original is good info, please do submit a datasheet.
These can be found in the forum section that says datasheets.

There is a current thread talking about slingwell markings where your info would be appreciated. 

I did see that and I do recall a number in my sling well. When I’m back home, likely for 4th of July, I’ll strip her down and do a thorough analysis. 


Posted By: Ben Cartwright SASS
Date Posted: Jun 12 2021 at 5:47pm
I have 3 M1's, the latest a Quality Hardware from Midway, but the two Winchesters (CMP) and the QH don't seem to be in the serial number ranges on the chart

Winchester  12114XX
                     13339XX
Quality H.     15663XX


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Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #59
Free advice is seldom cheap

Commander Spock "sometime having is not so pleasing as wanting"


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 12 2021 at 6:15pm
Ben, please see our serial number page for the assigned serial ranges to the prime contractors.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html

the numbers on the list on page one are serial number ranges that we have not observed. Most of the missing numbers are due to the contract cancellations and the prime contractor did not finish.  These are denoted as "A" on the right side of the serial number ranges in this thread.

There are serial ranges where we need more information and these are denoted as "B"

There appears to be number ranges that appear to have been skipped. These are denoted as "C"




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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Ben Cartwright SASS
Date Posted: Jun 12 2021 at 7:24pm
Thank you, I get it now!


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Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #59
Free advice is seldom cheap

Commander Spock "sometime having is not so pleasing as wanting"


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: Jun 13 2021 at 7:17am
5834657 mixmaster here, barrel appears original, proofed both by Winchester (WP) and Saginaw (P).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Jun 16 2021 at 11:25am
Noticed you were interested in any item with certain serial numbers.

The Carbine we have inherited from family is:

Qual HMC
4754311

painted on the gun handle is "C" "68" and shoulder strap is attached.

Making further inquiries as to where it is from. Unfortunately, living relative that originally had the item is deceased. Relative did not serve, but family friend served in Army. Not sure when or where, he died in mid-70's estimated age 60-65.

Intend to get an evaluation in the near future. I'll post any interesting comments.

Unable to upload photos on this forum.





Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 16 2021 at 11:54am
Please note that these numbers are very narrow bands of serial numbers.
For the full serial blocks as assigned please see our serial number page
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html" rel="nofollow -
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html

CRMJROWE, I see you have posted as a guest. You must be a registered member and signed in to upload photos


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Jun 16 2021 at 12:28pm
Got it! Apologies on misreading the chart. Still interested in photos?


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 16 2021 at 12:53pm
We always love photos.
If you are registered then you can sign in and post in the "Carbines of the Collectors" section or the General forum.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Jun 27 2021 at 1:54pm
 I just found one of these receivers a Underwood marked 249XXX it has a small w marked on back of receiver  and can anyone post a pic of a underwood buttplate for me please?


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Jun 27 2021 at 2:16pm
Billy,

Butt plate examples for all manufacturers can be found at this link for the Club site:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/buttplates.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/buttplates.html

Edit:  The known documented serial numbers are:





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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Jun 27 2021 at 3:54pm
My  RECEIVER IS 2491995 with an small W on rear of receiver, bought it just a reciever and I'm building a gun around it.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 27 2021 at 4:46pm
Billy, you need to log in, you are posting as a guest. No way to send you info.

Is there a flaming bomb or a circle around the W?


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Jun 27 2021 at 5:50pm
no bomb or circle


Posted By: Doogie632
Date Posted: Sep 12 2021 at 1:39pm
I have inherited an M1 .30 from a relative.  Upon inspection, it has General Motors Div 11-48 on the barrel.  Ser# 920000 range. While researching, I cannot find any production dates or possible value. I know inland was part of Gen Mtrs but there are no stamps or markings on there. Any help? 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Sep 12 2021 at 2:25pm
look closer at that barrel date, 11-43 would be more likely. 

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Doogie632
Date Posted: Sep 12 2021 at 5:05pm
you are correct, old man eyes. Question is, does the lack of Inland markings change value?  Where can I research this more? 


Posted By: MilsurpsUSGI
Date Posted: Sep 12 2021 at 8:00pm
Doogie, I'm curious as to which areas of your Carbine are missing Inland markings? If an adjustable rear sight has been installed, the manufacturer's markings can be partially hidden. Click on the large CC banner at the top this page for lot's of helpful information. - Bob


Posted By: Doogie632
Date Posted: Sep 12 2021 at 10:20pm
correct again. Just took a little cleaning. Thanks for the help. ser# 9255xx


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Sep 13 2021 at 7:59am
So that number falls in the blocks of serial numbers assigned Inland.
see here http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html#numericalorder" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html#numericalorder
and its not amongst the groups of numbers that seem to have been skipped (see first post of this thread).
According to Ruth & Duff The M1 Carbine Owner's Guide, your 925xxx probably was produced October to December 1943.  There are examples of carbine barrel date stamps leading final assembly and approval of complete carbines of 30 to 60 days.  Someone more knowledgable maybe has more insight specifically into Inland's production.  But it seems likely your carbine was finished December 1943.

Probably should start a thread about your carbine with some photos.  Its always nice when there is some provinance as in your case that its been in the family.

Of the books I've bought, I've found Riesch the most helpful for getting started with identifying parts.
If you get a copy, insert an erratta page in case any of these known errors affects something you're looking at. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/craig-riesch-7th-edition-review_topic5276.html " rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/craig-riesch-7th-edition-review_topic5276.html  ;



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