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Unusual Markings on Parts

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Newsworthy Items
Forum Description: Newsletters and Featured Carbines
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1270
Printed Date: Dec 06 2021 at 6:57am
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Topic: Unusual Markings on Parts
Posted By: Lupus Dei
Subject: Unusual Markings on Parts
Date Posted: Mar 01 2016 at 10:55am

March 2016

Download

 

UNUSUAL MARKINGS ON PARTS

 By Dan Pinto

Newsletter 356 provided an in-depth article on thevarious (Type 3) bayonet lug bands for the carbine,detailing differences in construction and markings. Among them were those manufactured by American Radiator Standard Corporation for Inland Div. Both the earlier individually-stamped S and I and the combined SI stamp can be found, but this is the first report of both stamps on the same band.

 
 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

In 1992, Newsletter 189-5 reported a factory lowwood stock with an unusual marking in the sling well: S&C U

The grain and color of the stock did not appear to be walnut. The cartouche on the right side of the stock was the late Underwood type: GHD over UEF with a crossed cannons stamp in a rectangular box.

Newsletter 202-7 reported a non-potbelly walnut M2 stock. The sling well markings were an ordnance bomb and the letters S. & C. One would suspect that these markings indicate manufacture by Sprague & Carlton, but those stocks made for IBM are marked differently: SC-B (no &).

Below is a recent find of the S. & C. U marking. This low wood stock has the same late Underwood cartouche on the right side. Pictured below left is an example similar to that mentioned in CCNL 202-7. Lower right is a typical SC-B  shown for comparison

 

 
 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

Hard to say what that mark is on the barrel. Looks like a C, but is it? This was found on an Underwood barrel that is an "import" carbine that bore the K. art marking of the Norwegian Coast Artillery.

 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

The early Winchester front sights marked with an L of the Lyman Company have been widely reported. (Left-most front sight below). Another odd marking (or is it?) can be seen on the bottom of the right-most unmarked Winchester-type "thumbnail" front sight on an original WRA carbine. Is that an L or just an unusual forging marking?

 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

Chris Albright’s IBM manufacturer update article in Newsletter 329 reported that fabricated front sights were marked PO B on the right side.

This particular sight

Has the markings on the inside of the left wing, suggesting that the "wing" was stamped before being formed.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

Marking errors on receivers have been widely reported over the years, including reports of early Inlands with deeply stamped markings. This 4-digit receiver was stamped so deep that impressions from the number dies can be plainly seen. (The milled grooves on the rear sight dovetail are from a sight modification made by the postwar Bavarian Police. See Newsletter 354-3.)

 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
 
If you have similar marking please share your posts or comments below.
We are also looking for submissions for future articles.
 
 
-60


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Louis Dey
Admin
www.uscarbinecal30.com/forums



Replies:
Posted By: gene of oregon
Date Posted: Mar 09 2016 at 12:56am
In regards to the S. & C. sling well mark (lower left pic) which manufacture was it made for? I have an identical stamped m2 low-wood without a cartouche, has a small O.G in a box stamped below receiver lift side, non-potbelly. Would this be a rebuild replacement stock??


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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 09 2016 at 6:11am
Yes, OG is the mark for Ogden Arsenal.


Posted By: gene of oregon
Date Posted: Mar 09 2016 at 10:15am
I know the OG was for Ogden Arsenal, but was this stock originally designated for one of the manufactures or arsenal rebuilders only?? Or just M2 replacements in general??

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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!


Posted By: JOHN42768
Date Posted: Mar 09 2016 at 12:44pm
S&C stock marking I believe early Sprague and Carleton Co.

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May the Souls of all those who served and protected our Freedoms Rest in Peace


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 24 2016 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by gene of oregon gene of oregon wrote:

In regards to the S. & C. sling well mark (lower left pic) which manufacture was it made for? I have an identical stamped m2 low-wood without a cartouche, non-potbelly. Would this be a rebuild replacement stock??
 
That was the question posed in CCNL 202-7 and why this is posted here.
I do not think it has ever been confirmed or denied.
Can you post some pics?


Posted By: hunterman
Date Posted: Mar 24 2016 at 8:17pm
I no longer have this stock but I kept the photos. It was a birch type 4.
[IMG] http://s1107.photobucket.com/user/rocker1951/media/hold/DSC06798.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> [/IMG]
[IMG] http://s1107.photobucket.com/user/rocker1951/media/hold/DSC06802.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> [/IMG]
[IMG] http://s1107.photobucket.com/user/rocker1951/media/hold/pix310786038.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> [/IMG]


Posted By: gene of oregon
Date Posted: Mar 24 2016 at 10:01pm
That was the question posed in CCNL 202-7 and why this is posted here.

I do not think it has ever been confirmed or denied.

Can you post some pics?

Hope this worked. Gene


http://imgur.com/rWez5s2" rel="nofollow - http://imgur.com/rWez5s2




Posted By: gene of oregon
Date Posted: Mar 24 2016 at 10:46pm
I'm comparing pic's of the lower left and the pic I just posted, it's the same pic.   I posted that pic back some time ago on CMP I believe.   Gene    
                  Mystery solved thanks Dan (New2brass)
       

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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 25 2016 at 12:05am
So I cropped the pictures from end to end of sling well and pasted into one picture to try keeping relative size. Keep in mind that pictures taken at different angles can skew comparative pictures.
We know S.C. B Is Sprague and Carlton and were known to use birch
The S.&C. stocks were non pot belly M2 with some differences such as fonts. Made of walnut.
The S.&C. .U. were clearly for Underwood as several still have the late CC.
Now we have Huntermans   SC u. Notice how the fonts and sizes tie in?
top 2 S C notice possible serif on C first S inconclusive, second appears Serif on S
2 and 3 the U similar size and font
3 and 4 ??
remember the skew. Maybe we can arrange better angles of pictures.
 
 
 
Discussion....... 
 
 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 11 2016 at 1:53pm
Anyone with a S&C stock I ask that you look under the butt plate and report numbers if found.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 05 2016 at 4:47pm
Here are some reported stocks from Sprague and Carlton with the numbers on the butt.
Please report any numbers found. or if no numbers found.
 
 


Posted By: EWRich
Date Posted: Jun 05 2016 at 5:00pm
OK, I'm really glad you posted that pic.  I was assuming a written number, thus me thinking that the grunge may have obscured them.  But no doubt now that I look at this picture that my stock has no such stampings.


Posted By: gene of oregon
Date Posted: Jun 24 2016 at 10:35pm
If someone here would like my S & C stock and would pay the shipping I'd be happy to send it to you. I really have no use for it. Let me know, Gene
           Sending it to Newbrass per our PM's

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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jun 25 2016 at 9:30am
One quick look yielded an SCB with very crisp 8 high and 2 low. It's been cut to low wood. Another has a 15 high but too obscured low to see anything. Cut to low wood.


Posted By: M1Dude
Date Posted: Feb 12 2017 at 12:45pm
Hey Guy's,
                   Here is a rare marking stamped into the stock of my original 1-43 Inland.. to the left of the bolt, I have seen other markings close to this of a few other carbines.  Anyone ever see anything like this?

Rgds, Mike


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Mar 25 2018 at 7:44pm
Here's another unusually marked stock. I bought it thinking it was a good value for an Overton Type 3, but when I received it I saw another mark. Why would someone stamp "OI" over "LW-B"? The guru's on the M1Carbineforum.com suggest this might have been an undocumented transfer. What do you think?





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JackP


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 25 2018 at 8:18pm
@mike, i missed your post.
Yes that mark has been observed and reported, thank you for posting.

@Jack,the question here is did Inland or Overton mark the slingwell?
Parts were to be marked so if there was an issue they knew which factory made it and to what prime contractor used it.
In the case of OI it is Overton to Inland.
We do see transfered stocks to Inland with just an "I" added to other marks.
So i would expect it to be LW-B and just an I, no O as overton had nothing to do with transfer.
So the question next is there crossed cannons on stock? If so whos crossed cannons.

EDIT
Notice the nice kitties above?
This is why we picked forum software that lets us store pictures.
Much information was lost when photobucket stopped linking photos. Imgr photo expire.
Please post from your aloted space.

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Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Mar 25 2018 at 8:48pm
I don't have the stock anymore but it did have an Inland crossed cannon cartouche and an Augusta Arsenal rebuild mark. Also a circle-P on the grip. Here are the only other pictures I still have of it. All other pictures were on Photobucket which I can no longer access (meow!).





I considered that it might have been transferred between Overton and Lumb Woodworking directly rather than between prime contractors. Here's a link to the subject on the M1CarbineForum.com.

http://m1carbineforum.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6655

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JackP


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 9:27pm
How common is this?




Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Date Posted: Apr 22 2018 at 7:30pm
Tenoc , Interesting ??? And to the OP, I have a Kart marked IP receiver that has a Underwood import marked barrel, I will check and get back if there are any markings/numbers at the tip.


Posted By: Dave Tennent
Date Posted: Apr 23 2018 at 1:43pm
IBM 3948459 Birch Stock


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Dave


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Apr 23 2018 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

How common is this?




I am guessing at least a 1000 of them!



I believe this is from a newsletter but cannot locate issue number.


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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Apr 28 2018 at 10:27pm
Underside of butt plate on SCB stocks



Also noticed BR-B stocks have 3 holes underneath the butt plate, but no numbers like SCB


Posted By: colreed
Date Posted: Jun 09 2018 at 9:05am
This B.L.C. stamp is on the barrel of my Inland 744,107. In 2008, this stamping was the subject of a Spotters Report published in CCNL 350, and was authenticated by Ron Wellman, a Technical Editor for the club at the time. I heard years ago that the club had knowledge on one other barrel with this stamp.




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"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"


Posted By: Winter1943
Date Posted: Apr 09 2019 at 11:04pm
Only one report of SI on the band? Well butter my biscuits and make that two reports because I have SI stamped on my band. 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Apr 10 2019 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Winter1943 Winter1943 wrote:

Only one report of SI on the band?

Is yours double marked with the two different styles of SI like the one in the original post?
"Both the earlier individually-stamped S and I and the combined SI stamp can be found, but this is the first report of both stamps on the same band."

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 12:09pm
Marcus Rust reports another double stamped S I over  SI found on an online auction site.
I have observed a few double stamped since this was published
Interesting is that the S looks upside down in all cases.



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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 4:36pm
Multiple stamps on an IBM Receiver Ring




Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 4:28pm
 Don’t know if this is unusual to anyone else, but is unusual to me.

Not sure if this was a Rock-ola to UEF or a UEF to Rock-ola.

It looks legit to me.  Anyone else seen same or similar?




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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 4:29pm


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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 4:34pm
yup!
This was reported in the newsletters.

If your looking to move or trade I am your huckleberry 


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Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 4:42pm
Dan,

I just picked it up...but I think you will be my first stop on anything unusual UEF-wise if I ever move it along.


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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 7:35pm
I found an extractor which had a similar small overstamp. Turns out that is correct for a very early Rockola spring tube and I quoted a guy a price of $85 for it about 7 years ago. The buyer was very happy to get it. Very rare in the case of the extractor.


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My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 7:41pm
Interesting....so you think probably UEF to Rock-ola, then?

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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

I found an extractor which had a similar small overstamp. Turns out that is correct for a very early Rockola spring tube and I quoted a guy a price of $85 for it about 7 years ago. The buyer was very happy to get it. Very rare in the case of the extractor.

Interesting indeed, how did you establish it belongs on a springtube Rock-ola?

Ping, , yup! It an Underwood  transfer to Rock-ola


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Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Dec 29 2020 at 11:51pm
I purely took his word for it and assumed it was so early of a transfer that it was limited to the earliest. So, there is room for error in that assumption. 

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My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 12:07am
checking COMs there were several springtube RO carbines, all reported as having an R sear.

Authorization for a transfer of sears from Underwood to Rock-Ola was approved in September 1943.
Then again that is the only know transfer of sears between the two


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Posted By: 1st M1 88
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 8:28am
This type 1 barrel band has mark similar to the C on the barrel the barrel tip of Underwood barrel in first post.  


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 8:30am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

checking COMs there were several springtube RO carbines, all reported as having an R sear.

Authorization for a transfer of sears from Underwood to Rock-Ola was approved in September 1943.
Then again that is the only know transfer of sears between the two


On the extractor portion of the discussion, it wasn't an Underwood piece, but I never bothered to check WB until now for transfer info. It's not listed as a transfer. So the info must be on a COM layout, a newsletter or just between knowing collectors.

The sear isn't an early transfer, and I see it's listed in WB.


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My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 12:14pm
How about a piston with a "C" etched into the fat side?






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JackP


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 3:00pm
Hmmm...wonder if it signifies a manufacturer or maybe a different material, like being coated with chromium or made of chromoly?  Aren’t some barrels coated with chromoly?  Maybe they were experimenting with something?

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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 4:14pm
@ 1st M1 88: That is an interesting band. the C does not look symmetrical, though it may be the angle the photo was taken. What is it on?

@tenOCEE: I misread that the R was on top of the extractor, which is a later feature. Yes the overstamp has been reported on the inside and not an Underwood extractor. Evidently not a recorded transfer.

@Jack: Odd that the C is not carbon fouled. I figure the etching would grab it up. Do you think this is specific to a particular barrel manufacturer?

Good stuff guys, Keep reporting the unusual markings.

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Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 4:58pm
This one is on eBay right now.  Wonder if it is just a mark in the carbon film from the gas port hole and recess in the front of the piston chamber?  This one has a similar mark, though not nearly as defined.




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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: 1st M1 88
Date Posted: Dec 30 2020 at 9:08pm
New2brass.  That barrel band is on an early inland serial 155311.  I've been working on a data sheet just haven't completed yet.


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Jan 22 2021 at 10:52am
I have a T-1 band swivel that is unmarked except for a stamped line or crease in it.

This band and swivel came from a crate of de-milled barrels and receivers that were de-milled during the 1960s and had been sitting in the original crate ever since, so I have high confidence that it is genuine.

Maybe it is just some kind of artifact that was left by the stamping process, as does not appear to be a purposeful stamp or marking of any kind.

The photos and lighting make the coloring look very silver in color, but in person, it is a flat gray parkerized color.

Anyone ever seen this?




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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: OAMAAM68
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 12:37pm
Quality Hardware & Machine Co. 1641290 in original finish with a line through the Quality H.M.C.. This is one I’ve had a while. Thought at first it was intended to be a line-out; but, since I never found where QHMC sent line-outs to other makers, I concluded the line through Quality H.M.C. was a stamping machine error when the SN was applied.
Buffalo Arms 8-1943 barrel. Has a Type 1 square S -- never been off dovetail; both leaves are notched.





Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 1:05pm
cool--never seen a QHMC with that issue from serial machine before--it would have been around Oct of 43--is about when Un-quality started producing--maybe they crossed it out-sample receiver--no idea-just a wag--I have a NPM buff out Un-quality so anything is possible


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 2:13pm
Yep OAMAAM68, that is an interesting QHMC. Wonder if it is possible that that was a re-used scrapped receiver. Does it have a comma after the 30 on the front of the receiver?

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: OAMAAM68
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 4:23pm

No comma. All NPM 'U' and all UN-QUALITY receivers that I've seen have the comma on the front ring. Quality H.M.C. carbines also have this front ring comma up to serial number 1621877. QHMC carbine 1633386 and beyond do not have the comma. Somewhere inside this range of serial numbers is where the comma went away. Newsletter 380-19 has a short blurb on this "comma question".
SF,
Bill


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 4:38pm
Bill,
Yes that is why I asked about the comma thinking that it may have been an earlier scrapped receiver and then reused with a later serial. Whatever the case it is interesting.


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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: kro1970
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 8:11pm

For the collection of unusual stampings


Posted By: kro1970
Date Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 11:20pm
Makes you wonder what the rational was for changing the Inland logo from horizontal to vertical that they thought was important enough to Change this one.





Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 01 2021 at 12:32am
Edith and Estelle teamed up to work split victory shifts
Edith worked Tuesday night when the logo direction changed happened. 
Estelle on Wednesday night,  not knowing the change happened and stamped them horizontal.

Her sharp eyed supervisor caught this right away and informed her of the change. She took the handful and restamped them to the new specifications.

There are only 7 out there, I call dibs on the next one!Clown


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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 03 2021 at 4:43pm
From our resident Inland Guru and former Inland Employee Ron Dalhamer on the Victory Shift.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/VictoryShift.jpg

and for those of use that would need to reach for the readers

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/VictoryShift1.jpg


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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 03 2021 at 4:44pm
Help wanted ad from August 1943

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/VictoryShift2.jpg


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Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Feb 15 2021 at 7:34pm
Double stamped R.I. Reece Button Hole Machine Co. for Inland trigger.





Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Feb 15 2021 at 7:48pm
One more... an EU over RP type 2 stamped front sight.



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 16 2021 at 7:40pm
I will match your R.I.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/TriggerRIRI.jpg

and raise you EM-B over EM-Q bolt

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/EMBoverEMQ.jpg




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Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Feb 16 2021 at 8:01pm
I think I posted this in another forum.



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JackP


Posted By: colreed
Date Posted: Feb 23 2021 at 5:59pm
A double stamp hammer




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"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 03 2021 at 6:26pm
Maybe a good spot to put up pictures of 2 odd Butt plates I ran across years ago and still have.

This 1st one came on a WRA type III stock with the Korean paint job on it.
This is also the Recoil plate that was on it. Shortly after I pulled more Korean returned GI stocks that had the same style Recoil plate on it. Another Recoil Plate had a square lug on top. Still looking for that picture-






Butt Plate Stamped Upside Down (?)



Found the Square Lug Recoil Plate:




Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 10:01pm
Ive been told this ) to the left of the serial number is a roll dye? machining imprint and I'd really like to see some other examples of this imprint if anyone has them. 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 01 2021 at 3:16pm
there is a interesting roll die error in this post
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/winchester-misstamp_topic5617_post43585.html?KW=#43585" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/winchester-misstamp_topic5617_post43585.html?KW=#43585


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Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Oct 01 2021 at 3:30pm
Wow - some really interesting Factory Screw Ups shown here :-)  Thanks!


Posted By: Carl Bine
Date Posted: Nov 10 2021 at 12:53pm
Anyone ever see an upside-down AO on an IBM? Serial number 3845907.



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 8:52am
Carl, Any markings above the serial number other than IBM?

Good stuff!


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Posted By: Carl Bine
Date Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 11:59am
hi, 
Nothing. Just IBM Corp. :)



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