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Presentation carbine?

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 21 2021 at 10:01pm
This is being sold as a Winchester Presentation Carbine that has no serial number.
I'm no expert so I have no idea if this was ever done.  But I thought the numbers were stamped when made, except those they knew were going to be transfered.  For example that's why some of early Saginaw recievers have Grand Rapids numbers, etc. 

There's other things about this that made me scratch my head, like the front sight appearence.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2021 at 11:02pm
Yea, funny how a desirable L marked front sight, that was used in a very limited range, is on this one.

If you got a good eye you will see some very interesting things if you look at both auctions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote skunk62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 4:50am
I'm no expert so I'll mostly keep quiet. But I have never seen diamond rough surface on a push button style safety like that. And on both sides too. I thought I said I was going to keep quiet? Hey, I said "mostly quiet".
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 8:07am
Nothing asked in a missed opportunity to learn something.

You get a point for mentioning the safety.

Very early in carbine production there were checkered safeties.




So where is Waldo?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigheavy31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 8:41am
Waldo must be hiding with all the swapped questionable parts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:11am
Between the time it left Mr Hinton and the current offering by Viezen, the mag catch was also changed.  The trigger housing looks the same and I think the color differences are in the photography.   The magazine has also been changed or refinished.
Ruth mentions Winchester sold some 'unmarked' mixed parts carbines to a South American country post-war as well making the sporterized protypes he illustrates (WB!). 
Something else can be seen when closely at the topview of rearmost slope of the receiver.
Just based on WB! I wondering if a T was obliterated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:16am
Mag catch has been switched too. Same magazine. Nice stock, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:48am
Seller is a regurgitator of auction site items. I suspect he "Riesch-es" along with about every other known correction peddler in the carbine hobby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:50am
The rear bevel and front ring are consistent with a Winchester receiver.

I wonder if the I cut has a deeper cut on the top and bottom?

I wonder if the trigger housing has two sets of hammer strikes?

As to the question of being a presentation. Different manufacturers did different things for presentations.
Many were cobbled together with left over parts or sometimes a experimental part. At times we see parts that probably did not pass ordnance inspection.
One of the things is that like in production there is the possibility of a transferred part.

I have seen more than a few presentations that over time an owner felt compelled to correct a part or two. To me this seriously effects the collectability of a presentation as would a original carbine.

 With swap of parts I would put the value as the sum of the parts and nothing more. The history is lost.


I have no confirmed reports of true presentation Winchester carbines. It does not mean they do not exist.

I have seen several "Lunchbox' Winchesters. None had proofed parts, none had a fine figured stock that was over sanded




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Durango56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:56am
Not that I would by it, but if I did how would you check it in with FFL? Would you have to apply for a serial number with BATFE?  When did they move Trademark under Winchester it was fairly late wasn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:12pm
I would be so cautious in purchasing something like that. It wouldn't take much effort to grind off the serial, reparkerize the thing, and make it look like a factory job. It'd be the easiest $8,500 I ever made. The exotic-looking stock would be more difficult to produce, but is still within the realm of possiblity if one has access to a stock duplicating machine. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I'd treat it with a healthy amount of scepticism.

Serial numbers weren't actually a legal requirement until the passing of The 1968 Gun Control Act, so I wouldn't expect you'd have any issues whatsoever regarding transfer. I've purchased a couple Winchester Model 67s in the past, and both are devoid of serials.


Edited by Pro Libertate - Nov 22 2021 at 12:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Something else can be seen when closely at the topview of rearmost slope of the receiver.
Just based on WB! I wondering if a T was obliterated.


Good eye there. There is a spot on the rear of the receiver that looks incongruous to the rest of the finish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:50pm
In this thread 6 Rings, who seems pretty knowledgable, mentions two Winchester presentations he is aware of.  Both he says have a number lightly engraved on them.  One marked EXP B he says is in WB!.  I haven't looked for it yet.

Serial numbers weren't mandatory for firearms until the Gun Control Act of 1968.  There are legal ways to handle firearms transfers across state line for pre-68 firearms.   One would certainly want to be extra careful in any of the states that have attempted to crack down on sales of  parts assembled guns (popularly called ghost guns). 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 1:04pm
It's hard to tell about the stock isn't it?
Behind the trigger looks like a Win, but with all the sanding and polishing the forstock's shape may have simply become more rounded. 

Now knowing that Dan is aware of some Winchester lunch box specials, I have to wonder if thats how this one started. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

In this thread 6 Rings, who seems pretty knowledgable, mentions two Winchester presentations he is aware of.  Both he says have a number lightly engraved on them.  One marked EXP B he says is in WB!.  I haven't looked for it yet.

Well maybe I misunderstood what Roger was trying to say.
The EXP/B marked reciever was an experimental carbine.  Maybe he his point was that non-production carbines might have a number lightly marked on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 6:31pm
Actually I think there is a EXP C as well. Might be in WB 3
I imagine this could become EXP D, but certain people would know a true one from a copy.

Sure you could grind a number off, but that could land you in jail. Easy enough to tell though.  


The trade mark was moved above Winchester. The carbine has an earlier receiver, and early parts.  Does not have a PW on barrel.. It is in a range that it could possibly have had a dogleg or straight hammer. However, with presentations anything is possible, same with Lunchbox specials.
If you have the newsletters look up RO TEST 9. It had early and late parts.

Lunchbox specials are out there. I think it was NPM that there was a large number of them.

QHMC made several Q-EX with no other marking/numbers. By the data sheets we can tell there are several of them by the different parts or stock pictures.

I believe an Ffl will put NSN for no serial number on a pre 68 that has no serial.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote welbytwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:08pm
receiver does not have same springtube cuts as EXP-A so is not EXP-C, EXP-B is at SA museum-EXP-A has 12-42 barrel--In my opinion WRA would have had much better security then the auto parts plants. I would expect very few lunch boxes out of WRA facility compared to auto parts plants. Not saying   bad but why would you risk stealing a m1 carbine if you could get a garand or just nicer WRA shotgun or rifle?? Think about --underwood type writer?, rockola jukebox? saginaw power steering pump? postal meter stamp machine? well maybe one of those!!   I can see guns leaving the non gun plants far easier then the WRA plant but I think I have lunchbox from WRA but it has serial and is out of spec receiver or barrel. My saginaw lunch box was mostly defective receiver and barrel assy and was acquired from grandson of worker who brought it home. To me the question is were really many lunch box guns in spec main parts???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:30pm
@Marcus,
Maybe why this one doesn't have the Oval PW stamp on barrel ?
I was just looking for any of your old posts about having ATF ok the serial numbers you had applied.

Wouldn't this one need SN# to be sold / registered ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welbytwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:52pm
no need for serial if never had one, need if it has been monkeyed with or removed, then you need a new serial. ATF has to give you new serial once you apply for it unless they can prove was used in a crime. To be safe simply remove barrel and take in then. It takes about 6 weeks to get new serial, then you have to take in and show them the applied serial number. They will not give you a email or letter-is all done with recorded phone conversations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:14pm
GI-Vienzen Auction pics show no Punch mark of front bevel- between front of rear sight down to rear of bolt. Shows it has the long hand guard receiver ring.

Later type III trigger housing doesn't have any of the letter or number stamps we normally see on the bottom of the TH. 
Cowens had a "EW" safety and Short tab mag catch. No pics of internals.
As stated above now GI-Vienzen has the checkered safety and long tab mag catch.
Also TH has the S/W Straight hammer with 22 coil hammer spring. No view of hammer strikes.

Because of no Oval PW (Barrel not proof fired or rejected?)
I'd give some $$ just to see the gas cylinder to see if it's really a WRA Barrel.

Anyone notice in the Cowan listing the dirty sling, but with Round keeper?
Now listed with a pretty sling with Flat keeper. Finial/Post shows zero finish wear.

Also wish I could see the bolt loose, pics don't seem to show that wavy milling chatter on top thats so common on WRA bolts.
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Been reading a long court case from 2002 between the feds and gun shop FFL over not having SN's in his log. Shop owner claiming feds are wanting a gun registry.

OT Trivia (?) In reading about the need of serial numbers I found this... Here just part of it: 
 *At issue is a February 2000 letter Marcus received from the ATF demanding that the shop turn over the make, model, caliber and serial number of each used firearm bought and sold at the store in 1999. The store sold nearly 2,000 new and used weapons that year. Marcus thought that the request violated federal gun laws that prohibit the creation of a gun registry.

This was the first time the federal government was collecting data on gun sales and Marcus' store was at the top of the ATF's list.

According to the ATF, Marcus' shop and 430 other dealers throughout the country were singled out because they had sold 10 or more guns used in a crime within three years of purchase. Marcus disputed that figure in the lawsuit.

The ATF easily can trace a gun from the manufacturer to the first retail seller to the first buyer. Second-hand sales are much more difficult to trace unless the agency knows where to look among the nation's 100,000 gun dealers.

The ATF said it is seeking to close this missing link. The agency contends it would have a better chance of tracing guns found at crime scenes with the list of second-hand sales.
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