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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 6:47pm
WOW! I wonder if lateral support? I am sure there is a helmet forum out there, if so I wonder if they ever heard of that one?
I know GE and a few of its subsidiaries made liners. And I learned that while researching carbine related items.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 7:44pm
USMilitaria has a Helmet sub-forum

Here's one with a liner described as Inland finished by Firestone and the photo has a the two logos overstamped.

In this one a person says Firestone would reweb old Inlands

But this one here says Firestone took molds as part of taking over the manufacturing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 12:31am
We could fill pages with this company's products! 
I chose this hammer because the handle is stamped WPA; and the logo stamped on the head was used starting in 1935.


Stanley also made military items during WW2 for weapons other than just the carbines.
One that seems to be fairly common is a small combination screwdriver-punch for the 1911 and 1911A1 pistols.  


There's a summary of contracts for this tool at USmilitaria forum: https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/227753-1911a1-takedown-tool/&do=findComment&comment=1807315
 
The ones Stanley made during WW2 were stamped with their trademark.



In a 2019 article, Walter Jacob states these were made by the Stanley’s tool division.  
He also brings to attention cleaning rods for the pistol stamped SW 1. 
He believes these were probably made by Stanley Works hardware division.
Both divisions, along with Stanley’s American Tubes Stamping Company got "E" awards in 1943.  

Stanley Works of the 1940s was the product of a merger between two companies owned by separate branches of the same family.  Stanley Rule and Level Company made tools, and Stanley Works made hardware such as hinges, sash locks, etc.  In 1920 they joined into one company, two divisions.

At that time, they came up with a new trade mark incorporating the hardware company’s S.W. in a heart, and a rectangular outline with Stanley in it.
1920-1934

Perhaps the rectangular outline came from the shape previously used in the tool company’s literature.
example from a 1914 Stanley Rule & Level Co. Catalog

In 1935 the logo was simplified to the one seen on the hammer and pistol take-down tool.

That said, it seems reasonable that they might have marked items some government only items such as the carbine magazines and pistol cleaning rods with SW.

ref:
Walter W. Jacobs "Stanley C64149 Combination Take-down Tool for the 1911 Colt .45 Pistol" The Chronicle of the Early American Industries Association.  72:2  June 2019. pages 82-83

Walter W. Jacobs "The Man Who Turned Stanley Works Around: The Story of William H. Hart" The Chronicle of the Early American Industries Association.  58:4  December 2015. pages 162-68

Stanley Tools, Catalog no. 34  [1949] 
https://archive.org/details/StanleyToolsCatalogNo.34/mode/2up



Edited by New2brass - Dec 30 2021 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:


That said, it seems reasonable that they might have marked items some government only items such as the carbine magazines and pistol cleaning rods with SW.



Wink

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/sw-magazines-not-winchester-spotters-report_topic3984.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 11:31am
Thanks!
And here's a nice chronology of Stanley logos, trademarks and promotionals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

While we're on the Typewriter-Carbine theme, I use to own an early IBM electric typewriter found in the town dump.  It didn't take much to get working.  Probably was a model B.  Another kid in High School had a couple of them.  Funny the things we thought were interesting! 



Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by PingCMP PingCMP wrote:


Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 


Ping, excellent question!
Look at War Baby page 476 and let me know what you come up with
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Originally posted by PingCMP PingCMP wrote:


Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 


Ping, excellent question!
Look at War Baby page 476 and let me know what you come up with


Yes, IBM stepped up to making extractors when Ordnance transitioned to the type 3. The transfer of extractors to Saginaw and safeties to Grand Rapids mentioned on page 200 explains why my S.G. has that W-B extractor and my S'G' an IN marked, type 3 safety. Some times we have to put 2+2 together to get our answers Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 3:19pm
There is a little more to it.
Rochester was making safeties and extractors before making carbines, extractors were marked IB, IN, IQ. Safeties marked IN

Safeties for IBM carbines were marked EMB, W-B, EPB and extractors IB, IN, WB, W-B.
War Baby page 200 shows that an emergency delivery of safeties were sent from Rochester to Poughkeepsie, These were marked IN

Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids (from page 200) be marked W-B?
If not how would the be marked?

*note* clarification added in last sentence.


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Edited by New2brass - Jan 06 2022 at 7:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ncin1911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 6:15pm
unmarked

or maybe we are talking about Grand Rapids not Saginaw? Then  I-S'G' ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 12 2022 at 12:37pm
The one that got away from Ron Dalhamer.
One of Inland's first products, a Steering wheel

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2396/SteeringWheel.jpg


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

There is a little more to it.
Rochester was making safeties and extractors before making carbines, extractors were marked IB, IN, IQ. Safeties marked IN

Safeties for IBM carbines were marked EMB, W-B, EPB and extractors IB, IN, WB, W-B.
War Baby page 200 shows that an emergency delivery of safeties were sent from Rochester to Poughkeepsie, These were marked IN

Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids (from page 200) be marked W-B?
If not how would the be marked?

*note* clarification added in last sentence.


You must be a registered member and post a reply in this topic to view the hidden content within this post!



The extractor in my S.G. is marked W-B, that was likely from the transfer of the 64,000 from IBM to Saginaw that was mentioned on page 200. The extractor in my S'G' is marked W S'G', which, per WB page 428 was sourced from Wadsworth Watch Case Company of Dayton, Kentucky. The IN marked safety in my S'G' was likely from the transfer of safeties to Grand Rapids from IBM.




Edited by PingCMP - Jan 13 2022 at 12:59pm
Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 1:14pm
Page 200 shows extractors from Rochester were sent to both
Saginaw, Saginaw MI
Saginaw, Grand Rapids MI

so the question still stands:
Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids or Saginaw plants (from page 200) be marked W-B?

The answer is no, Rochester made extractors for IBM with the IB marking and according to page 200 Rochester sent an emergency delivery to Poughkeepsie. These would be marked IN

W-B extractors were made by Wadsworth Watch Case Co for IBM at Poughkeepsie. So your W-B extractor on your S.G. would not have anything to do with the Rochester contract extractors on page 200.

IBM Poughkeepsie did send extractors to Grand Rapids. If they sent them to the Saginaw plant as well that would be a transfer that we do not know about.
Could Grand rapids have sent some to Saginaw? Possibly.
Could your extractor have been replaced? Possibly.

Like always, if the carbine appears to be original and there is a part or two out of place, do not correct it.

Hope that helps!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:59pm
Gunbroker is listing an auction for an Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine magazine, still in the original packaging. Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? The seller's starting bid is $175.00 with no bidders. Is the magazine worth $175.00?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:53pm
That magazine has been listed for a while, due to the price.

No prime contractor produced magazines. They were contracted for magazines to go with the carbines as well as spares(usually 10% ?).
All the magazines were all subcontracted out.
the government also had direct contracts with some of the companies that made magazines.

CCNL 206-7. 202-1, and 384-15 have information on the markings of parts and how ordnance recommend parts to be marked, but that ordnance would hold the prime contractor responsible.
I recapped this info here.
 

I have never heard of an IP magazine coming out of one of those packages. This was in one of the newsletters as well. But never say never.
It would seem that IP had ordered the wraps and S'G' subcontracted magazines were the only thing reported in them.

Unfortunately the price is driven by people wanting that "Holy Grail" IP carbine and parts.

On the note of spares or contract magazines, QHMC did have a 6-44 contract for 70,000 dollars worth of magazines. This is after carbine production ended for them.
It is unclear if they had magazines left over that ordnance was willing to accept, or just another contract. QHMC had a few contracts after their carbine production ceased.

There are QHMC marked magazine wrappers. It would be interesting to see if all of the magazines in those wrappings are the same marking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 

Before Saginaw Gear took over production of M1 carbines at the Irwin-Pedersen facilities, how were magazines marked when Irwin-Pedersen was producing M1 carbines? Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:18pm
Anything is possible, but like Dan mentioned above all the magazine that I have seen in that particular packaging have been marked K-S'G'. 
Some actual IP magazine markings would be IP-I, UP, I-IP, K-IP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?


Possible, but based on reports, unlikely. As I said above, Never say never.

Contemplate this, No carbines were accepted by ordnance and this lead to the cancellation of their contract and it being handed over to Steering Gear. Each carbine would have been shipped with a magazine. Ten carbines to a crate, so 10 mag to the same crate.
They would have had to provide spare parts as per contract, so parts would exceed carbines.

Steering gear came in, gauged the parts and salvaged what they could. Assembled into carbines and shipped out the carbines with mags (and slings/oilers).

Early in S'G' deliveries we see more IP marked pars but in a few months the S'G' parts show up.
I suspect the IP mags went out the door with the carbines.

Though the Saginaw factory was producing receivers for Inland, they were not producing complete carbines yet.
The two factories used by Steering gear to produce carbines was one contract. See CCNL 357.
In that newsletter I believe it points out that the first deliveries of S.G. carbines was out of the Grand Rapids facility.
It may be possible that both factories used the magazines on hand to get carbines out the door until the subcontractors were secured and makings changes were made.

The magazines Wayne pointed out were made by Union Hardware. International Silver, and Keeler Brass.
Grand rapids did not subcontract International Silver. Saginaw did not subcontract Union Hardware. Both had additional magazines made by other subcontractors



This is all speculation on my part.

All magazines were not wrapped. We have observed 100 magazines packed in a cardboard box wrapped. We have also seen 100 magazines in the cardboard box not wrapped.
Of those wrapped the packaging may be unmarked.




Edited by New2brass - Nov 13 2022 at 11:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 31 2022 at 10:30pm
Several factors combine to convince me that although undocumented, the W-B extractor is original to my S.G.. The story, which explained the hunting modifications, combined with price paid & the fact everything else matches up perfectly leads me to believe that Grand Rapids ran some extractors down to Saginaw because they were running short. That, and a helpful member from a forum years ago who was affiliated with some Saginaw club told me it was original when I first mentioned buying it.
Thanks for all your input on this Dan, I'm going to rely on you a little more going forward with oddball parts I'm seeing on other carbines I'm doing data sheets on.

Regards . . .
                Charlie

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