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Orange Hammer Pin

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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Orange Hammer Pin
    Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 6:32pm
Any metallurgists out there who might know what would cause the orange color in this hammer pin? Thinking if was rust, I tried to remove it, but nothing came off.










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 6:56pm
Looks like it was copper-plated. Before the advent of new processes, a copper plating was laid-down prior to nickel-plating. The copper adhered to the substrate better than nickel and the nickel adhered to the copper. 

It almost looks like it is copper with a grungy deposit on it.

Just a SWAG. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 7:10pm
Does a magnet tell you anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:

Does a magnet tell you anything?

For sure do that. We will know if it’s plated steel or non-ferrous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 8:15pm
A magnet does stick to it. Most of the small parts in the trigger housing, in addition to the pin, were magnetized for some reason. I think the dark areas on the pin are bluing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

copper selenide?



Residue from a cold-bluing. I have never seen this before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 2:19pm
I was going to suggest this yesterday but why would somebody (who is not me) prefer to blacken (plated) copper rather than simply blackening the original steel? It doesn't make any sense.

Maybe the pin came from Greece? The CMP once sold carbine bayonets similarly "treated". I'm sure there must be a reason which just escapes me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 3:04pm
Some cold blue used copper selenide 
poor solution or bad variables. 
I am sure formulas might have changed.

Reminds me of the blued parts coming out plum possibly due to wrong temp for a given steel composition 

Be interested to hear if others have similar colored parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 3:25pm
As a hobby, I use to plate small parts like triggers, hammers, slides, tools, pins, screws and such. That pin looks just like something I would have flash-plated with copper before I applied nickel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 4:10pm
@new2brass - Interesting theory. I would also be interested if others have seen a part that looks like this. For all I know, they all look like this underneath as I've never cut one in half. Anything is possible and never say never, but I have my doubts this part was cold blued.

@floydthecat and blackfish - I do not know when this part was made, but it presents itself as an anomaly with an unknown purpose. I suppose it could have just been laying around the factory when it was assembled with the other parts into a carbine.

Purpose wise, would a copper plated pin serve as a "lubricant" to a hammer moving back and forth across it? Also, I thought that normally only the head of the pin was blued, All of that friction would just wear off quickly with the friction of the hammer rapidly moving back and forth, correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 4:15pm
Copper plating is normally used as a substrate for chroming parts. It is always possible that someone was going to chrome the part and ended up trying to blue it instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2020 at 4:26pm
Copper would produce less friction, but I think plating a hammer-pin for that purpose only would be overkill. Electroless plating is a fairly recent process and if that pin was plated by some chemical action....on purpose or accident, it was way ahead of it’s time in terms of the age of original USGI carbine parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2020 at 7:51am
@Smokepole - Makes sense as this pin was found on a "minor" presentation carbine.

@floyd - I've been reading about the electoless plating procoees delveoped sometime in the 50's, I think.

When I get some time, I post more pictures of it. Most of the parts are pretty standard. Just wanted to say thanks to all who offered up explanations. I'm no metalurgist, but it's facistanting to me and I've been keeping an eye on those who might be or know way more than I do about the subject and participate on this site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jt22453 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2020 at 9:46am
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by a minor presentation carbine? One with regular finish and normal features of a production carbine but marked as such on the receiver as opposed to the mirror finish, specially selected wood, wooden box and other features.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2020 at 11:17am
electroless plating is reported as being discovered in 1944. 
There were many things that were in wartime use that were later patented or further developed.
I am not making a claim that the electroless process was one of them in use as I have not looked into it nor read anything that would suggest its use on wartime production.


Conventional plating was in use for a long time and copper was used for chrome and silver plate and probably others.

We know from records that small parts were blued with some specific trade names. I believe there were all the hot blue, caustic blue , or black oxide or what other names were used to describe the same process. 

What I do know is Underwood was experimenting with finishes for rust protection as well as friction reduction finishes 
Before the war Underwood developed chip resistant paints which they used on their typewriters and business machines.

Presentations at times used parts that were left over, did not pass ordnance for one reason or another.  Some incorporated experimental parts.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2020 at 12:43pm
@jt22453 - Apologies..Some context. The hammer pin shown is in an Underwood presentation carbine. When I say “lesser”, I mean an E code. For lack of a better word, the “greater” and harder to find Underwood presentation carbine had the recipients initials on the receiver instead of an E and a three digit number.  CCNL 375, written by Marcus Rust, has more information on Underwood presentation carbines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jt22453 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2020 at 12:58pm
Yes, the context you provided was fantastic. I did not know that about Underwood presentation carbines. Always appreciate learning something new. Thanks M1a1fan!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 12 2020 at 5:04pm
@Jt22453: No problem. More to come on Underwood presentation carbines...

I've heard a unique tool room carbine article is also in the works. More on tool room carbines here.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jt22453 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 12 2020 at 5:46pm
Very cool. Looking forward to it....
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