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New Rockola marking found?

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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2019 at 10:31pm
All,
It wasn't my intention to end the debate.
Knowing Eddy was out of state visiting family I thought the best thing to do was bring attention to the 2 items he had listed that were being questioned.

If you read the text in his description about the Sear he pulled it states:

"You are bidding on one T-1 sear marked R on top for Rock-Ola. Sear is used and in very fine condition. I used chalk to mark the R on the sear, there is no I next to the R so it is a Rock-Ola sear unless I'm mistaken and if I am please let me know."


The C marked Bayonet Band being described as WWII WRA issue, is a mistake from using the Riesch book for his information. This I gathered from messaging with him.

We'll just have to wait and see when and how he re-lists these 2 items.

VR,
Charlie-Painter777


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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 11:31am
CCNL 356 has an article on type 3 barrel bands which are the ones with the bayonet lug.
It covers all reported markings.

The C Cowles bands have been reported with the high C which are the ones observed on late Winchester carbines. Cowles was a subcontractor to Winchester

the low C is reported as postwar

Then there is the serif C which is found on the opposite side of the band. It is not clear that this is, in fact, a Cowles band, however, the C. Cowles & Company logo uses all capital letters with larger serif C's
Does anyone have one of these? If so please let the club know

Monte Ferarri reported the high C and Low C packaged T3 assemblies which had the Cowles name and address and packing date of December 1953. Hmm does that mean the high C should also be considered postwar?

Then there is the small W which has been observed on packaged Winchester marked barrel assemblies.
It is believed that Winchester did not make these bands. From the drawing, it looks that it may be consistent with the shape of the Cowles bands. These are believed to be postwar.
If anyone has one of these I would be interested in it so I can compare to the others.

Looking at CCNL 371 there were some auctioned off Winchester carbines that came out of the Winchester factory that were not delivered to Ordnance circa 1975, Most notably the box of ten carbines.
6 were reported as round back C (high C) with 4 reported as Unknown.

 Then there was the "Perry Six". 3 were reported as having bands with the "W", 2 Unknown, and one with a "C". The C was not specified.

I have observed a carbine that is believed to have come out of the Winchester plant in the same time frame. The action appears unfired and in new condition. The band on it is a low C.

wartime vs. postwar

Winchester vs. made for Winchester or on the Winchester when it left the factory.

Discussion?



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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 11:53am
Dan,
Trying not to stray to far off course..
I noticed this NOS Complete WRA Barrel assembly auctioned 3-31-19.
Described as sent as part of Mutual defense in the 50's in Norway.
Bayoband has the W. Lower spot welds similar to locations found on C Bands and Unmarked Type II Bands.

Link to completed auction:




I believe I have a pictured stored that may have the W stamped lower...
Similar to the difference we see on the C marked locations.
I'll have to search for that later.

Hate to ask, But could you crop this picture ?

Regards
Charlie-Painter777
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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 12:03pm
If you look at that NOS barrel assembly you'll see it's an IBM tooled Winchester barrel. I've got the exact setup sitting across the room from me now, but I'm out of date for picture posting here. Mine is like that one in that it's an IBM tooled barrel with Win proofing and W type 3 bayonet lug barrel band. This one has a thumbnail front sight but doesn't really appear to be Winchester style. There is no W, only the WP. I can't remember if I got it from Todd440 or it came from a local purchase, but I removed it from the receiver it was on. Records were lost in a computer issue.
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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 12:19pm
Morning OC,
Guess it would have helped if I'd looked at all the pictures. I seen the listing late last night.
Agree, no sign of a W stamp on the barrel.
No marking on gas cylinder.
I'm due for some shooting...... Maybe that will put some FUN back in the Hobby.

THx,
CH-P777




PS: Found Pic of other W band. The W is in the same position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 12:28pm
Can you believe someone paid $750 for that assembly shipped? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Can you believe someone paid $750 for that assembly shipped? 

OC,
I was Shocked !!
When I seen it and it still had a couple hours to go.
To be honest I really only paid attention to the price and seeing it had a W band.
Reminded me of discussion a couple years ago where someone paid $385 for a Low C Band.
Here's a link, but auction is long gone:
Reply #3-

Also the front sight on the WRA barrel I posted about (pic below) isn't a Lyman/WRA.
The back of the side ears don't have the slope found on Lyman/WRA sights.

Auction Frt Sight:



WRA, N and RMC TR marked:



Question ??
I'm not that familiar with Late WRA's.
Are they found with that Hack saw cut Original?
Latest WRA I own is in the 5,8 range.

Thx,
Charlie-Painter777
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

but I'm out of date for picture posting here. 

Check your space now


Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Dan,
Trying not to stray to far off course..

I think we are in the weeds now, But can move the band stuff to its own post if need be.

Re: IBM cut barrel. It is probably in the newsletters but I have my wading boots on for other stuff,
Does the barrel conform to IBM or did Winchester add the cut?

It is known Winchester was working to buy other manufacturers "parts" at their cost to manufacture when the other manufacturers had their contracts canceled.
The obvious parts are the Underwood and Underwood subcontracted receivers. 

I wonder if Winchesters came out of the factory with a mixed bag of parts. If so how many of these thought to be incorrect were corrected?
Or did the parts become spares sold to the government? Did any other marked parts come out of Winchester wrap?
Or was the parts limited to the receiver and maybe the IBM barrels? What about these front sights?

on the W band. Some point after the war the requirement was dropped to mark parts. Yet we may see some postwar parts that are marked. Could the band be made by Cowles and the W was to distinguish it from a spares contract from Cowles to the government?

More questions then answers it seems

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 2:15pm
Sorry for the weeds. I can be the worst at doing that.

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

but I'm out of date for picture posting here. 

Check your space now

Ok. Will do. Thank you.

Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Can you believe someone paid $750 for that assembly shipped? 

OC,
I was Shocked !!
When I seen it and it still had a couple hours to go.
To be honest I really only paid attention to the price and seeing it had a W band.
Reminded me of discussion a couple years ago where someone paid $385 for a Low C Band.
Here's a link, but auction is long gone:
Reply #3-

Also the front sight on the WRA barrel I posted about (pic below) isn't a Lyman/WRA.
The back of the side ears don't have the slope found on Lyman/WRA sights.

Auction Frt Sight:
WRA, N and RMC TR marked:

Question ??
I'm not that familiar with Late WRA's.
Are they found with that Hack saw cut Original?
Latest WRA I own is in the 5,8 range.

Thx,
Charlie-Painter777


None of the late Wins I've had have the cut on the barrel, and I've had 6s and a few 7s. That IBM Win barrel I have was bought knowing it was that style of barrel. I swear I think I got it from Todd440 off CMP and was a complete carbine. I got about 3 from him and this may have been on a Rockola with yellow high wood Rock stock I still have. He always deletes his for sale threads after they sell though.

My assembly's front sight seems consistent with that ebay NOS one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 01 2019 at 3:16pm
I don't know if this will help with the discussion but this link https://photos.app.goo.gl/xiMZfBwxpg5YZ4K7A is to pictures of a WRA barrel assembly that I purchased at the SOS 3 years ago. It was wrapped in a greenish colored cloth wrap similar to a light canvas and covered in cosmoline. I always assumed it was a replacement barrel assembly that was put in longtime storage sometime after WW2. The barrel was short chambered.
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