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new guy from Tennessee and his Bavarian M1

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crowtalks View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 05 2017 at 9:49pm
Hello all, I have a carbine that I fell in love with 40 something years ago. 

I grew up around these guns. My father was a radio operator/forward observer for an artillery battalion in the Pacific and he carried a carbine. As a business owner after the war, he was constantly trading on things and we had a plethora of guns come and go, but we always seemed to have at least one M1 carbine around. Growing up in the hills of Tennessee, I often carried one with me when I would be out on one of one of our family's farms. About 1970 a friend of my father, who was also a local Sheriff, told Daddy he was getting some of these gun for his department and asked Daddy if he wanted him to get him one of them and I believe the cost of the rifle was $25. That carbine was the oddest carbine I had ever seen and I asked Daddy to keep that one. Ten years ago, when my father was 85 years old, he handed me the carbine and told me to take it home.

Researching the gun some over the years, (I believe most of the info I derived came from through this site) it appears to have been a Bavarian M1 carbine made by NPM with an early IBM barrel. The finish is black with a rose colored trigger housing and dual rear sights, a milled peep and one in front of the receiver. The import mark is below the wood. The manufacturer marks on the stock have me puzzled: 2 Ds with a separate H (looks like this) D D    H

Thanks, Jim 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 12:38am
Jim, Nice looking carbine. Can you post a picture of the marks you are talking about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 6:29am
Welcome to the forum.  Great looking carbine. If you haven't already, be sure to check out the reference on the Bavarians.  You can click on the carbine in the top banner of this page to get you into the reference site. They are listed in the tab Occupation Carbines. Or here's a link: 
Some very knowledgeable individuals on this forum who can give you some great insight into your rifle's history.

Again, welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 8:32am
Jim,
Welcome to the forum, this site is a great resource for information, and as already stated, more pics of the markings, also would like to know what markings are on the trigger housing.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 11:39am
Hey, I have some more pics here...the trigger guard pics also shows the hammer and the additional sight that was soldered onto the front of the receiver at some point. Thanks for the interest and any info ya'll can share.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 12:42pm
Does the rear dovetail have lines machined crossways or is it smooth like any other carbine?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 4:50pm
It has machined lines just in front of the dovetail...here is a closeup of the bolt that shows the lines, though they are out of focus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 4:57pm
I was attempting to get a shot of the slide side where I can almost see writing that seems to have been removed...

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 5:57pm
Welcome crowtalks. Don't get to see many Bavarian's in the wild, but it's great to see one with the second rear sight. Are there any markings on it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 6:04pm
There are no visible markings on the added sight that I have been able to see

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 6:07pm
Very unique setup. Three sighting mechanisms and white paint on the front sight. Now that is attention to detai.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 6:47pm
Interesting, one of the more evident indications of receiver rail scrubbing. I have two Bavarian carbines that are both rail scrubbed and have numbers stamped in the oddest places. Nice looking Bavarian. Congrats and welcome to the site from a fellow Tennessean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 9:18pm
Thanks all for your replies...if anyone interprets the stock lettering, please let me know. Apparently Tennesseans appreciate fine firearms for there seem to be a few of them here...glad to be in good company, regardless the homage!

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 12:51am
Hi CrowTalks Jim

I'm the researcher who did the project on reconstructing the history of the U.S. carbines used by the police in Germany and Austria.

The DD H in your slingwell isn't a manufacturer's mark. It's consistent with stocks that someone placed a unit designation on. Occasionally I've seen a carbine used by the Germans or Austrians that has an unusual marking on the stock and less common in the slingwell.

It's possible a German agency put the marking there. There were so many agencies using them it's impossible to know what everyone did everywhere and the variations over time. But it's also possible the DD H was there when the Germans received it. From an American unit.

My answer is I dunno. Just best guesses based on what I've seen so far.

I don't know if you've seen your importer in amongst all the info on the "Bavarian" website. The known importers are shown on the export/import web page. I suspect your marking indicates Century Arms Inc. St. Albans, NY. Details regarding the shipment they brought in are shown on the page. Including a clipping from a law enforcement magazine advertising the carbines for sale. Interarms bought some of them from Century Arms and also sold them to law enforcement only. Federal law as a result of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

The Bavarian markings having been removed was done by Bavaria. They initiated a policy of removing the markings before the carbine was sold. It appears the folks on the operational level finally convinced the policy makers that while it was a good idea given the volume they were dealing with it was slowing everything down when Bavaria was making commitments on sales. Maybe 1/3 of the carbines I've seen that were used in Bavaria have the markings removed to some degree.

The rear sight they put on the receiver ring I've only seen done for/by some of the Bavaria Rural Police and Bavaria Border Police. Peepholes were not something they were used too. Personally I like the notched sight they used better than the peepsight. Just a personal preference.

Some of the rear sights they made had one or two letters on the left side of the sight but many had no letters. After searching for many years trying to identify which rifle the sight may have been on prior I'd seen enough of the sights both on and off the carbines that it appears they were custom made from a block of metal as opposed to a sight from another weapon having been modified. Many of the Bavarian rear sights have been removed by subsequent owners, the Austrian Gendarmerie included. Finding one with the sight still intact and the filled in dovetail has become more difficult over time.

INTRAC in Knoxville, TN imported about 7000 carbines from Austria about 1993/94. Many Austria had purchased from Bavaria and left both the Bavarian and Austrian markings on them. These were sold wholesale and retail exclusively by Centerfire Systems and TN Guns.

Glad the website was of interest and help to you. Eventually when these other pages and projects are completed I'll go back and update the Bavarian carbine website. I make corrections when I find errors but have enough info I've learned the past year I need to update a number of pages.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 10:40am
Wow! Thanks for the great info. The import markings are Century Arms on the receiver below the wood.

The only markings on the stock I have seen are those letters in the slingwell. The stock portion in front of the receiver has a W stamped in it on the flat, and in the convex section there appeared to be an odd checkmark and possibly a cross or an X, might be just oddball marks. I could add a photo this evening if you are interested.

Thanks, for the great info!

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2017 at 8:41am
Some of the early Winchester stocks were marked on top of the bridge forward of the cutout for the trigger housing. Some of those also have the W in the barrel channel.











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2017 at 8:34pm
Here is the W on my foregrip
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2017 at 7:39pm
I have been inspecting this weapon closer. I see what possibly could be a couple of numbers in the convex area of the foregrip (looks like 28)...maybe, but then they may just be random marks...I took the best shot I could.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2017 at 7:45pm
CrowTalksJim

The 2nd pic doesn't look like the numbers the Germans or Austrian placed inside a handguard. Too small and usually on the flat area to either side of the center. On yours they look like random impressions. The W is what it clearly is.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crowtalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2017 at 8:03pm
LOL, That's what I figured... I noticed that the trigger housing has the last four of the serial number...first time I had noticed that...so i have seen serial numbers on the rear of the receiver (obviously) then four digits on the slide, the bolt and the trigger housing...are there any other places I should look?

Once again, thanks for the great learning experience and awesome info!

Jim
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