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New Carbine, New issue (to me)

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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Carbine, New issue (to me)
    Posted: Oct 17 2021 at 8:33pm
picked up my 2nd carbine Friday. It’s a mid 43 QH, everything down to the sear and firing pin has the appropriate markings on it. Appears to be “as issued” Beautiful gun. Got it cleaned, took the bolt apart (glad I did, I’m pretty sure I am the first person that has ever done so and it was full of thick black goo) and got it lightly greased. Decided to shoot it along with my inland today. Shot 90 rounds from my inland with USGI 30 round mags, 90/90 with no issues. Then pulled out my QH. Used USGI 15 rounders. Out of the 30 rounds I fired from it, I had 4/5 times of it not fully going in to battery, note, it was not firing out of battery. The bolt just would not lock down “fully into battery” Had to drop the mag and pull the op rod back a few times for the extractor to pick it up. This is a new issue to me. Chamber is clean, along with everything else on the firearm. I changed the recoil spring, but that was all I changed out before I took it out to shoot. Any ideas? I had tons of bugs with my inland when I first got it, but I quickly got them sorted out (changed all bolt components and all springs throughout the gun) and is now my most reliable firearm (even more so than my Garand, believe it or not)

Thanks for the suggestions. 
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floydthecat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 5:24am
Is it not rotating on a loaded round? Will it rotate and lock on an empty chamber? Could be several things at work here, but I’d check head space just because.

Edited by floydthecat - Oct 18 2021 at 5:46am
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 12:57pm
it will rotate and close on a empty chamber, and also with a round. Just about 5 out of 30 rounds the bolt wouldn’t fully rotate. I had to drop the mag and get pull the op rod back so round would eject 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 2:24pm
Is it possible you are running across some ammo with slightly longer cases? I think you gonna have to measure the head space and the brass. If the action happens to be tight and on the border line, it won’t take much longer cases to snag. Check all the bearing and contact sliding surfaces for burrs and rubs. Check to make sure the extractor moves freely and nothings binding.

Run the ammo through by hand and see if you can identify certain rounds that cause the problem. You can swap parts between your carbines to isolate the issue.

Head space might be just fine, but it’s the first thing that should be checked on any new, or new-to-me carbine. 

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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 3:02pm
thanks. I just have a field gauge (it’s on its way, hasn’t shipped yet) or will I need go/no go? And now that I think about it, I think it ran fine with the Korean surplus, but the Aguila was what gave me issues. I will disassemble and look in bolt locking lugs for burrs, cycle some rounds through it. Would any chamber obstruction cause this? 
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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 3:06pm
Failure to close would be if the casing is too long, or the headspace is too tight.
The field gage you have coming will indicate if there is too much headspace.

Maybe a drawing would help. Let me look.
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 3:08pm
my inland seems to be able to shoot any and all ammo. I have seen where y’all state some carbines are picky about what ammo they like. Very interesting. The bolt on the 43 QH is EM Q


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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 3:19pm
you want me to do a drawing of it? Or you are doing one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 4:20pm
With good ammo, it won’t be that picky. Some can be picky about what they will feed, but not usually what they will fire. You don’t report a feeding issue. The possible problem is cases too long. The field gauge will tell you if the action is too long…..not too short. It can pass a field gauge test and not close, but it might be too tight. 

I am going to pm you with the method to measure actual head space to rule that out right off the bat. I have had a carbine that had obviously been shot…a lot, but when I checked the action, it would not close on a go gauge. Previous shooters just had not came across that round that was 1.290 or longer…yet.

It could very well be your Inland eats it and the QH chokes. No two actions are usually exactly the same.


Edited by floydthecat - Oct 18 2021 at 4:44pm
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 4:28pm
After I was able to extract the round and load it back into the magazine, it would fire the round that the bolt had just failed to close on. They all fired, eventually. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 4:35pm
PM sent.

It is possible to maybe “set” the round deeper into the chamber after a couple of bolt-bangs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

After I was able to extract the round and load it back into the magazine, it would fire the round that the bolt had just failed to close on. They all fired, eventually. 

This has me a bit curious…..was the round hard to extract, like it was sticking? Any unfired commercial or reload should not be hard to extract. Tight head space, out of spec brass or sticky chamber will cause that.
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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 5:09pm
I was going to look for a digitized drawing or photo to mark up.
I thought I had seen one that was suitable.
Sorry I got delayed - had to deal with the seller of my Midway who thought my comment in his CMP feedback thread was unwarrented.  Disapprove 

With Floyd helping you make a check with the real thing, an illustration may not be needed.  
See how that goes. 
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 5:13pm
yes, it was difficult to extract. I had to pull the operating rod charging handle back a few times before it would extract the round. It would not extract on the first pull in any of the attempts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 5:43pm
I take it the extractor is jumping over the rim? That might need to be looked at as well. Usually one has to almost stomp the charging handle to pull a stuck case and yet the extractor will hang on for dear life. I did have a situation in which the case rim was driving the base back into the extractor arm knocking the claw over the rim, but that was a weird situation. I had to grind a tad off the inside of the extractor arm to make it grab and yank. I will also mention it was a commercial extractor and possibly out of spec to begin with. 
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 7:03pm
what do you mean jumping over the rim? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Oldboy53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

 

I am going to pm you with the method to measure actual head space to rule that out right off the bat. I have had a carbine that had obviously been shot…a lot, but when I checked the action, it would not close on a go gauge. Previous shooters just had not came across that round that was 1.290 or longer…yet.

It could very well be your Inland eats it and the QH chokes. No two actions are usually exactly the same.

I was just reading this post, and remembered that I recently shot up a box of Aguilla. I saw the brass to reload, so went to the shop and pulled out a few pieces. Of the first two I measured, one was 1.280", the other 1.290". I'd say they're not too picky about case length.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 8:36pm
Here's a picture I think will be helpful. 


Headspace is the distance from the bolt face to the foward edge of the chamber.
If the cartridge case is too long, then the bolt may not be able to close.
For example if an agulia cartridge has a case 1.293" long, and the headspace is 1.291".

On the other hand if the chamber is a little short, then some cases that are within specification won't allow the bolt to close.

Extractor
painter777 has a great photo on milsurps forum showing the extractor and its plunger.
As the bolt closes on the cartridge, the extractor is pushed back on its spring loaded plunger.


There's an animation showing the extractor snapping over the rim at 4:16 in the training film  digitized and posted here. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17368&p=93030&viewfull=1#post93030
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 8:47pm
I took the bolt apart when I got it on Friday, and it was HORRIBLE. I am 100% the first person to ever take it apart. The extractor was full of black gunk. I soaked it all in hoppes for a day, and cleaned it out with lent free foam q-tip things I have. I did not replace any parts or springs in the bolt, however. I did change the op rod (recoil)spring though. 
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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I take it the extractor is jumping over the rim? That might need to be looked at as well. Usually one has to almost stomp the charging handle to pull a stuck case and yet the extractor will hang on for dear life. I did have a situation in which the case rim was driving the base back into the extractor arm knocking the claw over the rim, but that was a weird situation. I had to grind a tad off the inside of the extractor arm to make it grab and yank. I will also mention it was a commercial extractor and possibly out of spec to begin with. 

Are you saying it could be a burr on my extractor or an issue with the extractor?
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