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need help IDing new Carbine

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colreed View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 22 2017 at 12:52pm
Just acquired .U. at auction 2400937. Win barrel, mostly Inland guts.
I have 3 issues I could use some help on, please. (see photos):

1. I can't ID stamp on receiver rear bevel. Reisch and War Baby don't ID. I don't have CC newsletters. If it were a plain T, would be OK. But mine is wTA.  UNDERWOOD stamp is not lined thru.

2. Stock, T1, stamped IR with ordnance bomb. Could this be a misstamp of IP-IR?

3. If someone could date my SN, would appreciate it.

Many thanks.






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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2017 at 1:03pm
Reed, You do not have a Underwood, you have a Winchester with a (T) Intertype subcontracted receiver which was made for Underwood. When the contracts were suddenly ended for most Winchester had made an agreement to purchase parts for their ongoing contract.
 
We see some with the Underwood buffed off and they have Winchester numbers and name.  As you mentioned they also lined out.
 
In your case Winchester added the W and A on the rear heel.
 
I believe these were done with the 5.5 block. check the rear site carefully as it may be original
 
The I.R. stocks were war time Robert Irwin replacement stocks. so there would be no IP. Be very suspect of these stocks with Crossed Canons
 
Nice find! I have one not far off your serial
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colreed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colreed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2017 at 1:50pm
Dan, Many thanks
The Manufacture stamp under the rear sight is UNDERWOOD.  Are you telling me that this is actually a Winchester carbine? Wow! That is a surprise to me. Sort of explains the Win barrel.
Let me make sure I understand this beast. IE, Underwood originally made the receiver, stamped UNDERWOOD and the SN, but it was a left over at the Underwood plant when their contract ended. Winchester purchased it as a part, stamped wTa on the heel, and added their barrel. Correct? UNDERWOOD is clear as a bell under the sight with no alterations. 
The rear sight is an IRCO.
The stock has the look of being original. the ordnance bomb is very faint in the cutout below the IR. There is circle proof P on the heel under the hand grip but no crossed cannons anywhere. Doesn't appear to be a cutdown, and metal fits really nicely. 
The butt plate is small diag.  
Any idea of value? Gave $715 for it.
Can you ID year of Mfg? Barrel has no date. 
Again, thanks so much for your help.

"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2017 at 3:18pm
Yes it is a Carbine assembled in the Winchester plant. It should have all parts consistent with the 5.7 range (Oct 44?) based on the use of serial numbers reported on transferred receivers. However I would speculate those like yours may have been used a bit earlier due to the fact that they were ready to go.
 
the receiver was not made by Underwood. It was made by Intertype for Underwood and marked T on the heel. Underwood applied their name and serial number.
 
IR Co rear sights were used by Winchester in that range. Check staking marks.
Does it have a bayo lug? that with inland parts it was probably though a rebuild. Or someone swapped out parts thinking Winchester parts were incorrect
 
you did very well.
I do not like giving values as it is subjective, but at 715 for a USGI carbine you did good
 
 I have seen a correct one sell for 2k but another has been listed recently and do not think it has gotten over 1200 after several relists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colreed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2017 at 4:03pm
Dan,
Staking marks:


No stakes on the left side.
It does have a bayo lug, S I
Oct 44 sort of surprised me. Would have thought a little earlier, but really had no idea.
I'll check all my books for proper config. May try to make correct (albeit not original).
FYI, there was also a worn Winchester with SG barrel and poor replacement wood that went for about the same price. 
Have a great week, and thanks again.
Reed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2017 at 10:34pm
stake marks look right as rain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2017 at 9:39pm
Got a pic of the gas cylinder on the right side that shows the flaming bomb? Have to take it out of the wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colreed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2017 at 11:19am
tenOCEE,
It took a while, but I got that pic you asked for


"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 02 2017 at 7:12pm
Nice score! Don't see those very often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2017 at 12:52pm
That's the same flaming bomb stamp that was discussed in the last printed issue of the CCNL's. There was much discussion on the CMP forum saying it was fake. This is now the third example of that style flaming bomb stamp on a Winchester barrel and all have been in the same serial number range. Further proof why you should never say never in carbine collecting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colreed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2017 at 1:29pm
I haven't seen the newsletter, or the discussion, but if I were to guess....I'd say the bomb die was tilted to one side and didn't get a square hit. I agree with you, never say never.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2017 at 6:01pm
This is why reporting observations, data sheets, etc... are som important. If records don't exist, gathering data and analyzing it can lead to discovery.

Example: I've observed 3 UW carbines in the 1.4 block with a * on the front face of the forward receiver trigger lug.

Observation, documenting and visualizing through pictures is what makes carbine collecting so much fun. Never know what discovery is right around the corner. Could be something that was missed by previous data sheet reporters or something brand new. Even if it is a mixmaster, it is important to observe and report as anything is possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2017 at 9:15am
Originally posted by kro1970 kro1970 wrote:

That's the same flaming bomb stamp that was discussed in the last printed issue of the CCNL's. There was much discussion on the CMP forum saying it was fake. This is now the third example of that style flaming bomb stamp on a Winchester barrel and all have been in the same serial number range. Further proof why you should never say never in carbine collecting.


It was my take that some members were just giving the owner back some guff for his very vocal and negative stance on their endeavors. Yin Yang IOWs, just busting his hump in like kind. And partially because the COTM he always mentions like it didn't have the same stamp.
Those involved know there is a lot of room for variations.

I've been looking for another stamp of the large version that I found on a similar vintage Winchester. Haven't seen another one like it.
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