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NEED Answers, I just don't know

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Da1Chief View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 6:52pm

Let me say I am a new owner and a new member so the amount I know about the M1 Carbine would fit in a thimble with enough room left for 5 gallons of water.  Most everything else matches as to what the book states.  I am currently taking my time to make sure I fill out the Data Sheet correctly.

I had had my head inside of Craig Riesch’s book for over 3 weeks trying to research everything I can about my IBM AO (3,876,xxx Built somewhere around mid Feb to Mar of 1944) and have found a few things I am just not sure about and need help to understand.

1.  The stock is marked SCB as well as the Hand Guard.  Both are Birch Wood which fits with the book.  However, it is a “Low Wood” type 3 stock. That is 13,273 before IBM “Officially” went to Type 3 stock at 3,890,000.  Is it possible that they had both at the same time or more probable a re-stocking?

2.  Someone before me has sanded the stock and varnished it.  There are no cartouche markings left.  Needless to say I am not happy about this.  There is a faint circle “Stain” where the cross cannons would be but nothing you can actually see.  The SCB marking is clearly stamped in the “Sling Well”.  The SCB in the Hand Guard is light but can be seen with magnifying glass.

3.  The Barrel is marked “I.B.M.CORP.” with no additional markings.  I can’t find when IBM dropped the Date from their barrels.  Does anyone know?

4.  The Barrel Band is a Type 3 marked with “//” and it should be a type 1A with IBM sub contractors’ markings on it.  That can be change out. I have a type 1A marked KV-B on the way for the swap-out.

5.  Front and rear sights need to be changed to correct marked.  Currently has SN (Postal Meter) front sight and Milled adjustable Rear Sight marked “HI” (with no shield around it).  Again, I have correctly marked front (EU) and rear (SI-B) on the way in.

Please Provide Answers, Opinions, and Guidance.  I just want it to look and be correct.

Very respectfully

Da1Chief (US Navy Retired)


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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 8:05pm
I live in the HR area and would be happy to look at it, perhaps at an upcoming show? I also have an AO IBM carbine for reference purposes. I’m sure there are other members in the area, but they are few and far between. AO’s are my favorite version of IBM carbines, next to presentations but they are almost impossible to find.

Looking forward to returning to local shows as it has been ages since I’ve seen Gus.

PM me if you’d like to chat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 8:56pm
I will be at the Chesapeake Gun Show on Saturday Nov 13th.  Plan to get there somewhere around 10am but can adjust if you wish to meet.

Will PM with my Phone Number for texts and voice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 10:17pm
Hmm, don't change anything until you can verify what should be on your IBM to begin with. The barrel band you're describing as a type 3 is one IBM used so don't change that. There's other things I'd say too about changing parts without being sure, but all I'll add is that will Riesch is okay to get a basic understanding of things he is not perfect by any means.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2021 at 8:44am
Second Why Carbines. Leave it alone till you find out more about it. The barrel band is most likely correct and is an expensive part. A lot of correct Carbines have been uncorrected because of the Riesch book. The Carbine Club Newsletters have a great update on IBM Carbines I would highly recommend you buy that issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2021 at 9:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2021 at 12:10pm
Also suggesting to make no corrections until a review, but not my carbine. Marty’s excellent article “expect the unexpected” has also been provided.

Looking forward to seeing it in person for an evaluation, comparison with some of mine, review of the relevant IBM newsletters and exchange of information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2021 at 7:24pm
Gentlemen (from the verbiage used in your posts, I assume you are all men)..  Big Smile.

First let me say Thank You for you Guidance.  You have gotten me to throttle back from “Full Steam Ahead, on modifying my IBM AO too quickly to an “As delivered to Military Ordnance” condition.

 My personality, (O.C.D., Anal Retentive, Perfectionist) has been kicking in at about 95 percent since I got my IBM AO.

 I honestly appreciate the article that NEW2BRASS provided a link to.  I found it extremely informative and again put the brakes on my charging ahead.

 I have to admit that I truly Love the look of the Birch Wood on the M1.  I just find it Really unfortunate that someone sanded down the cartouche marking to the point of virtual invisibility.  It would truly be nice if something like an X-Ray of the stock could show what was originally there due to the hardness of the wood when it was stamped. (You can see how my personality drives some crazy ideas) … Big Smile!

 I do think, in my humble opinion, that the Type 3 Barrel Band is just a little too much and I don’t really like the look of the Bayonet Lug on the M1 Carbine.  With that being said I will probably hold off on the install of the Type 1A KV-B Barrel Band on it.  That is, until I can be absolutely positive of what it was built with. (Even though I have already spent $165 for it)

 I have 2 more sections of the Data Sheet to fill out, then I will carry it to my gunsmith and have him validate what I have found before I submit it.  I just want the information I submit to be accurate.  That way we will all have a known starting point to discuss what direction I should go.  Whatever the direction, I just want to do justice to the weapon.

 I did find a M12 Tool Roll and M13 Spare Parts Roll that I ordered.  Using the list of tools and parts noted in another thread here I will acquire the correct items.  No matter what I do with the weapon I will have a compete set of tools and spare parts to accompany it for the remainder of its life.  If a point in time comes that it passes from my hands, they will go with it.

 Again, I wish to thank each and every one of you for your honest input.

 V/r

Da1Chief



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2021 at 10:43pm
Are you sure it’s a type 3 barrel band with bayonet lug marked “//“? Never seen or heard of one marked “//“. Have seen plenty of type two’s marked like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 7:19am
kro1970, Sorry that was my mistake....

I was looking at it with ordinary room lighting when I originally though it was a //.
I pulled out my BIG Mag-Lite LED flashlight and had a second look.
It is actually a Type 3 "KI"
Did not mean to put out ANY misinformation.

V/r
Da1Chief
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 7:25am
Again, a question....

I have NO idea what this means and haven't been able to find anything about it in a post, pictures, or book.

On the bottom of the Pistol Grip there is a Stamp Marking of a 1/4" tall 1/8" wide Capitol "Z'

Does ANYONE know what this could mean...  Driving me crazy not being able to find anything on it.

V/r
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 8:10am
Okay, with all of your additional info it sounds like a rebuild of some level or another. I was wondering what was going on, now I know...stills sounds like a neat IBM.

Hmm, just noticed my rather severe reduction in "rank." Certainly the staff can correct that since it was something that was never mentioned to me. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 8:33am
The letter on the bottom of the pistol grip is a characteristic of IBM stocks that has been reported on original appearing IBM's. CCNL 345 talks about this marking. It would really be beneficial to you to purchase CCNL's 329 & 345. They are excellent sources for IBM information. It will be money well spent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 9:15am
Why Carbines?, Thank you for the information...

Is the "Z" some sort of a identification generally used on a rebuild, on something such as a stock being refinished, or a way to identify a rebuild of the actual mechanical parts inside.
Could it simply be something as simple as:
A mark used to identify the refurbishing of the stock? (especially after it had been sanded enough to take the cartouche out and varnished)
A "Re-Stock" of the rifle or is it a sign of something much deeper inside?

So far the only real non IBM markings I have seen are the following:
Front Sights: "SN" marked front and rear.  "S N" on top at rear (closest to receive) and another "S  N" at the front (One letter on each side of the sight post, reading S  N when viewed looking from the Muzzle.
Milled Type 2 rear sights marked "Hl" (without a shield around it).  The only "Hl" marking I have heard of has a Knights Shield around it.

Haven't broke down the "Trigger Housing" yet. (Project for later today) but it is plainly marked on Right Side  BE-B.  The Hammer (from what I can see so far) is marked "AM".  I have looked for a "B" after it but can't see one.  I know IBM used Type 3 WMB,  GMB, and AMB hammers.  Can't find any info on hammers with just "AM".  Will know more this afternoon after the breakdown.

Yea I know, one question leads to 100 More, just trying to understand what I have, and what is and is not correct and/or fake.
I have 2 more books on order for reading and been going through forum threads trying to learn before I ask a stupid question.

Yes I know stupid questions do exist.  I just don't like asking them.  Especially if I can read and answer it myself...  I am a BIG believer in "RTFM" Read The Firetrucking Manual... (Big Smile)

V/r
Da1Chief

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 9:35am
The letter on the bottom of the pistol grip is probably an inspector mark that was done in the factory. It has nothing to do with any rebuild procedures or any indication of what was done to the stock. If I were you and you plan to get involved in carbines save your money on books and buy the complete set of Carbine club newsletters. They are a wealth of information and much more detailed than any book I've ever seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 9:44am
There's nothing easy about figuring out these details.   At least thats what I'm finding.
War Baby! has a lot more of this sort of information, but more is always being found or figured out from looking at and comparing examples. 
Those collectors with lots of experience and familiarity will see things and know if they make sense or where to look for info.  

If you have War Baby! coming in, the last chapter on IBM has a parts identification section specific to IBM.  It also has a list of IBM sub-contractor parts and a list of known transfered parts from other manufacturers.  From that you can work on the puzzle and see if some more pieces fall into place.
Obviously more information has come to light so those club newsletters sound like an excellent suggestion.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 9:48am
I only wish I could afford the entire collection of news letters.  I did the calculation of $5 per issue on the early set and $10 per issue on the later issues.  I just don't have $2200 to spend on them right now.

In the future YES I can see getting them but for now it is simply a matter of money needed elsewhere.

V/r
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 9:59am
kro1970,

I didn't mean to sound short about getting the news letters.

I spent all my Mad Money to get the Carbine and the rest I have to save for one of my "Better Half's" projects. (New Hardwood Flooring). 

All of us have those "Honey Do list" hanging over our heads.  Especially when they see us spending money on what We want instead of them...... Huge Smile

I want to give you a BIG Thank You for telling me about CCNL's 329 & 345.  I will get the Immediately !!

V/r
Da1Chief
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 10:01am
I have observed the small letters on the bottom of the grip on other manufacturers as well. It may have had something to do with Ordnance or storage.

Da1Chief, It is far more economical to buy a complete set vs many individual newsletters.
As far as info specific to your IBM you would do well with just CCNL 329 and 345
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 10:03am
No problem. I never took your response as being short. I know all about the Honey Do's and can identify.
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