The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Navy Carbine ?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Uncle Mike View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jan 03 2016
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Navy Carbine ?
    Posted: Dec 01 2017 at 8:29pm
Hi, I saw this online and it's marked US Navy on the receiver and has a USN mark in the stock cut out. I never saw or ever heard of such a thing and the marking on the receiver looks amateurish . My first guess is somebody ruined a nice SG Carbine, regards, Mike
 
 
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2152
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 02 2017 at 10:54am
That's funny, I knew that carbine looked familiar. It was sold by Julia auctions early last month for $2415. In the description on the auction sight they even said that the United States Navy marking was questionable. 
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
Uncle Mike View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jan 03 2016
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 02 2017 at 11:26am
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

That's funny, I knew that carbine looked familiar. It was sold by Julia auctions early last month for $2415. In the description on the auction sight they even said that the United States Navy marking was questionable. 
Hi W5USMC, Nice catch, regards, Mike
Back to Top
Marty Black View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Editor in Chief Emeritus

Joined: Dec 30 2015
Location: Pismo Beach, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 100187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 02 2017 at 2:09pm
Yeah, Mike's got that right. In the nearly 40 years of research by the Carbine Club, Larry Ruth (for far more than 40 years), as well as other researchers over the decades, we never found any carbines marked to a branch of the US Military.

Carbine contracts were made with the Ordnance Department, not with individual branches of the US military (unlike some of the early M1911 pistol contracts.)

Of course, some individual ships, small boats or submarines may have marked carbines with their hull number or name, but - as far as I know - none have ever been reported by collectors. I'm reminded of a couple Garands that had been turned into CMP decades ago, which had been recovered from a mothballed WWII destroyer. They had a cardboard hang-tag identifying the destroyer name and hull number, but the rifles had not been marked as such. I was able to buy one of them.

Yeah, re: this S'G', some bubba ruined an otherwise collectable carbine. That rifle is only worth the sum of its parts.

Thanks for the report, Mike.

MB

Marty Black
Back to Top
m1a1fan View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Got Para?

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 1732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 02 2017 at 3:26pm
Also note the I cut Underwood in the OP's link which was also sold at Julia. Be careful out there.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html
Back to Top
David Albert View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Status Quo Challenger

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 02 2017 at 11:21pm
Let me preface what I'm about to say with the following:

- I don't believe there is anything documented to verify this
- My statement is based on personal observations
- Many times, added markings are made to deceive and try to get more money from a collector

I've done a lot of research and review of photos, as well as examination of live examples, including one of my own WWII era firearms that were marked with branch or government department markings. My focus has been markings found on H&R Reising Model 65 .22 Rifles, and Colt Thompsons, but I have also looked for other martial firearms with similar markings.

My gut is the marking was done by a ship's armorer. Again, there is almost certainly no way to verify this. The metal marking is crude. I don't think it was made by someone who was trying to increase its collector value. The markings on this M1 Carbine appear to be a part of the weapon's history. Of course, they were not applied during manufacture.

With H&R Reising Model 65's, I've seen markings that are almost undoubtedly added to attempt to increase collector value. I have also seen many, and have one, that appear to be legitimate USMC armorer markings. I have also seen one that was marked as property of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
With Colt Thompsons, a wide variety of Police Department markings are encountered. It's kind of a fun study to see them. Most of them are subtle, but some are quite obvious. Most do not detract from value, since as previously stated, they are a part of the weapon's history.

My point is that sometimes these weapons were marked in the field for whatever reason. It may have been for property security reasons, or out of pure boredom. Maybe an armorer got a new letter punch set, and decided to try it out on this Carbine. I think if it were for the sake of collector fakery, the metal marking would be a lot better. The rule of thumb should be that if significant additional collector value is assigned based on the ad hoc markings, then caution should prevail.

My personal opinion is that the value of this M1 Carbine is not degraded by the markings.

Just my $.02...

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Eagle Scout, NESA
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2152
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 03 2017 at 9:38am
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:


My gut is the marking was done by a ship's armorer. Again, there is almost certainly no way to verify this. 
My point is that sometimes these weapons were marked in the field for whatever reason. It may have been for property security reasons, or out of pure boredom. Maybe an armorer got a new letter punch set, and decided to try it out on this Carbine. I think if it were for the sake of collector fakery, the metal marking would be a lot better. The rule of thumb should be that if significant additional collector value is assigned based on the ad hoc markings, then caution should prevail.
David,
I believe that your thoughts on these markings have merit, when I first saw the markings I thought to myself, I can picture a Ship's XO saying, we have Marines aboard, I want all Navy property marked so it does not disappear! But just as you stated there is no way to verify. One thing I do know for sure is that I will not be the guy that buys that carbine for $3250.
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
Uncle Mike View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jan 03 2016
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Uncle Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 03 2017 at 10:44am
Hi, my only comment is if indeed marked by a ships armorer why in a place where is was not very visible? Why mark it on the stock? The accepted procedure would be to add a rack number, IMHO. It looks like it was stamped by "Bubba" not an armorer. I think there are some interesting comments and I thank all that responded. I think this is going to stay a "mystery", regards, Mike
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2152
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 03 2017 at 11:17am
One thing I would like to point out that I find pretty interesting is that when the carbine was listed at Julia auctions, they stated that the Navy markings were "questionable" but now that it is listed by Legacy collectables thay are stating "rare Navy marked carbine" I think that says something about who and who not to buy from.
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.