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My first Carbine

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Collector87 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 7:25am
hi

i bougt a few months ago a m1 Garand and got the Carbine for free.
The Rifle was in very bad condition, full of old grease and dirt. The Wood was really black

I disassembled and cleaned the rifle,
carefully cleaned the Stock an re-oiled it

after cleaning and inspect, i saw that it is a rare Carbine
im not sure that everything is correct, have no experience with this Rifle. So i would be glad if someone can give me help/informations. What is the value?
A Riflescope was once mounted on the Carbine, i do not think that was original.

Inland Divison
Serialnumber: 4 digit 861*
Barreldate 6-42, in very good condition
flat Bolt
Sling (i hope it is original ww2) it has a name on it, as much i could read: Schumacher

here a few pictures:














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Collector87 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Collector87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 7:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 8:19am
Hello and welcome to the forum.  A free carbine...what a deal!  The barrel date sounds right for the rifle's S/N.   The letters and numbers on the bottom of the trigger guard are those carbines used by the Landespolizei (rural police) in the American Occupation Zone of Württemberg-Baden.  See the reference pages for occupation carbines by clicking the carbine at the top of the page or here's the link: http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Armory.html  There are experts on this forum to help with its occupation history.  Also, what letters are stamped in the sling well, or add a pic.  As for the sling, it certainly has the patina and wear as an original.  I suspect you'll get more questions.  Great carbine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 9:10am
Welcome. Thanks for sharing. Very interesting rear sight. I'm having a hard time making out the markings, but looking forward to learning more about it. It appears to have holes drilled into the receiver, I'm assuming for one type of scope mount.

Normally, I would say congrats on your new purchase, but it was free...so congrats on your new acquisition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 10:00am
I.R.CO. with drawing number
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 10:21am
Fantastic, here the carbine would be worth as much as the Garand.
You can upload pictures right to the forum. See my signature link for how to post pictures.
I am sure most will agree that we would like to see some bigger pictures.

What marking is on the hammer?

Open snap on sling and look for lettering underneath in the fold. 

Best, Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 10:44am
Dan, When I click on his pictures they load larger, took awhile for them to load clear., his hammer is an Underwood dot U dot. I think it's a good bet that the sling is legit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 10:46am
Collector87, greetings and welcome to the forum from New Mexico, USA!

@Dan, the OP's thumbnails are links to extremely large pictures (5K+ pixels) and take a long time to load. Maybe you can help him repost so we don't have to wait so long on our antique computers to see this interesting carbine.

JackP
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Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 12:32pm
In addition to the dogleg Underwood hammer, I see that a portion of the left wing on the Type 3 rear sight has been removed, perhaps to make clearance for the bracket for the optics that may have been mounted to the receiver. Has this been seen before in the Bavarian carbine universe?

Also a nice Type 1 (checkered) safety. What other treasures does this carbine possess?
JackP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 1:52pm
I have a T3 on a carbine that has been bevelled on the left side and front. I assumed it was done to clear an optic, but this receiver was never drilled-n-tapped for a scope mount.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2020 at 2:18am
Welcome Collector87!

I'm the fella that did the research on the U.S. carbines used by the German police (and Austrians) during and after the American Occupation. Info on those provided to the police is what was then the American Sector of Wurttemberg-Baden and their Landespolizei can be found on the web page devoted to them at http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/wb.html.

I don't recall having seen a scope or evidence of a mount on those used in Wurttemberg-Baden by the Landpolizei but I wouldn't be surprised if a few turned up. Some of the Wurttemberg-Baden Landkreis polizei used them. As did some of the Bavaria Rural Police, Forestry Police, and Game Wardens. They were having a problem with rabid foxes getting into the trash of homes and populated areas that required as much precision as possible to negate the threats.

The mount and scope each officer used was usually whatever they could get hands their on so there are a wide variety of mount holes.

From the looks of the wood on your stock I suspect the scope mount and scope may have been added by a later owner after the carbine was sold by the police. Just a guess based on the condition of the wood in the cutout. I agree the rear sight was likely altered to accommodate the optics.

There are a couple challenges with "value". One of which is the values in Switzerland and in Europe are not the same as the values in the USA. To check the values in Europe have a look at https://egun.de/.

Another challenge is the condition of your carbine. Appearance counts but so does the condition and safety. There are two areas I'm concerned with on yours.

I can't tell if the jagged line that extends along the right side of the receiver digresses into a crack as it gets closer to the slide retention notch (2 right arrows). The other is the slide has been altered above the right bolt (left arrow) lug exposing the markings and extractor that is normally covered by the slide. This alone warrants a closer look at everything else to see if other things have been altered. As well as a safety inspection by a qualified gunsmith. Given it's condition when you obtained it and the cost I'd recommend this anyway. It's a used carbine and subject to the wear of all used carbines. With headspace being the #1 concern without alterations being present.



Unlike the USA the specific parts within the carbine usually don't have a lot of value or interest in Europe. Most are more interested in function, looks, and shooting than they are collecting. A number of people in Europe make good money by selling the individual parts to people in the USA. We could give you an idea of which are rare and bring more value here. Like the hammer and your safety. Most of us would prefer the carbine left as-is given what we can see appears to be original to the carbine. Which in the USA ups the value of the carbine. But your carbine receiver can't be imported into the USA for a reasonable cost, if at all.

We're in contact with several people in Switzerland who are carbine owners. Many were sold in your country as the various countries in Europe sold those they had received as military assistance, under Lend-Lease, or purchased. Most own them for shooting but at least one I know is a collector located in the Basel area. Who wishes to remain anonymous.

Hope this helps

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Collector87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2020 at 10:02am
Many thanks to all for the answers, that helped me a lot
never thought the rifle was used by the police. Learned something again.Wink
I see all members here have a lot of knowledge about carbines, its very interesting.

thx Jim for your help


got the rifle from a gunsmith, from his private collection. Everything is good and has no cracks. Unfortunately, he couldn't tell me much about it.
I shot it at 300 meters and it is relatively accurate (could hold the 7)


there are not so many carbines in switzerland and if so they are in poor condition. from $ 600

is it possible that my carbine came to the police as a new weapon with this low Serialnumber?
doesn’t look like a warrifle, if I compare it with my garand from 1943
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