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Most complete in-house carbines |
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Paul1262 
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Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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 Topic: Most complete in-house carbinesPosted: Oct 07 2018 at 7:26pm |
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None of the ten primary contractors had all the tooling necessary to manufacture all of the parts that went on their carbines. Which of the prime contractors manufactured the most parts on their carbine?
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W5USMC
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Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 7:31pm |
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Wayne
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Paul1262
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Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 7:44pm |
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Wayne, Thanks. It appears that Underwood manufactured more of their parts than any other prime contractor.
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Paul1262
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Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 9:19pm |
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There is a reason I was asking about the completeness of prime contractor carbines. I'm currently looking for another carbine and want it to be all correct. It just seemed to be somewhat easier to inspect a carbine for completness if most of the parts were manufactured by the same company i.e. receiver, barrel, trigger housing, etc. Not sure my reasoning makes sense to anyone else.
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meckanic
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Joined: Nov 30 2017 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 9:59pm |
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A Prime Contractor assembled a carbine using parts he manufactured. The other parts he needed to finish assembling a carbine came from his subcontractors. There may have been times where the Prime was running out of parts and his subcontractor could not keep up. In a case like this, parts would be brought in from some totally different Prime or subcontractor to help the first Prime Contractor finish up his lot. Due to the way carbines were assembled, different manufacturers parts could have been mixed with the Prime or subcontractors parts and the assembler did not care who made the part, one was just grabbed and put on. First find the parts the Prime Contractor made and make sure they are correctly stamped and is the type used at that time of manufacture. The subcontractors parts would have to be found the same way. No records exist as to when ACME made parts or XYZ's parts were used on a certain carbine. ACME and XYZ used as reference for names of subcontractors.
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 10:33pm |
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Some transfer records exist, with the dates and observation of original carbines we can make educated ranges.
Either not all transfers were recorded or had not been found yet. Again by observing original carbines we see trends in those parts usage. Bottomline if the carbine looks correct please think twice about swapping out a part. |
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blackfish
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 6:56am |
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As a prime contractor, I think Quality Hardware was unique in that they produced many "correct" and today highly sought after carbines containing NO PARTS made by themselves.
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zenfly
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 7:10am |
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Larry Ruth points out that
over 4.3 million individual carbine components were swapped
between contractors for use in the assembly of finished carbines. This
factor, he notes, plus the fact that there were 1772 changes to drawings
and 187 changes to specifications made in the course of carbine
production, "Yields an astronomical number of possible
combinations of 'correct' component parts that could have been
assembled into any given carbine."
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Fly Fishing boat Capt Port Canaveral..FFF / CCI
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Paul1262
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 7:41am |
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Quality Hardware is an interesting recommendation because one of the carbines I have a chance to purchase is an Un-Quality. The name itself just through me off.
I think I'll take another look at it. |
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blackfish
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 9:30am |
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UN-QUALITYs are cool. I have one because it's "different" from the rest.
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Paul1262
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 9:36am |
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Not to over simplify my quest for a correct carbine. If I found an Un-Quality Hardware carbine with the receiver marked accordingly, had no import/rebuild marks, or post war reproduction parts, would I consider this carbine correct?
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W5USMC
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 9:54am |
Still depends on the parts make up, do your research as to what parts would be expected at or near the particular serial range. I will say I agree with blackfish and if I had an opportunity to buy an Un-Quality I would jump on it and for me I would not care if it was a rebuild or an import as long as the price was right. |
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Wayne
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meckanic
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 12:37pm |
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An early correct Quality would have Rockola subcontacted parts in it i.e. that were documented properly. The barrels are subject to possible alternatives used. Depending on the S/N. Those are easy to follow and research due to extensive information out there.
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 2:14pm |
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AFAIK: QHMC had their own subcontractors, Rockola being one of them for stocks and hand guards. RO-Q recoil plates were H.B. Rouse Barrels were from Gov free issue program, so yes we see dated RO barrels on QHMC and they were the rule early on. There was a transfer of barrels as well. QHMC first shipment of carbines was Feb 43 but first reported received transfers were 3-43. Firing pins from Rockola were observed early on and we know of a request for them in 1-43, just never confirmation of received. There was a transfer of 500 complete trigger housings in 3-43, but that number is so small that it would not cover a blanket statement that early QHMC used Rockola parts. As to the other transferred parts they were mostly unmarked parts or too small in numbers. Sure they were in close proximity and the possibility of unknown transfers happened but looking at some early examples I see nothing that justifies this nor do I see much in the newsletters. Interesting is that even though in close proximity I see that the subcontractors to the two companies have a very little overlap of marked parts when you take out magazines, oilers, and slings. Parts transferred were required to be marked, though I have never seen small parts marked this way. |
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Paul1262
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 7:29pm |
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Wayne, I know this is a difficult question but what price range do you consider the right price ?
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W5USMC
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Posted: Oct 08 2018 at 10:08pm |
Paul, not sure I'm the right person to answer that question as I can be pretty stupid when it comes to spending money. Lets just say that if I saw an import marked Un-Quality mixmaster, that was in decent condition, good muzzle, good headspace, I would probably pay up to $1000 maybe a little more. No import mark add a few hundred to that. No telling what I would spend on a legit "as left the factory" original. |
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Wayne
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ekruegerv
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Posted: Oct 12 2018 at 10:15am |
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I've got a winchester complete build in basically as new condition.. I've had the rifle apart for cleaning after shooting, EVERY part is winchester. The weirdness is its a 131XXX serial number (early #), however it has type 3 stuff on it (bayonnette lug, adjustable rear sight, new bolt, etc) and never passed through the rebuild process. I've had some people theorize what happened, but to me it's interesting. FWIW, inherited it from my grandfather who had the rifle tucked away for a long time..
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps 
Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Posted: Oct 12 2018 at 10:32am |
For curiosity's sake, what makes you think it's never been through a rebuild? They were rebuilding these things before World War II was even over, of course not all of them were. |
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ekruegerv
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Posted: Oct 12 2018 at 10:38am |
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[/QUOTE]
For curiosity's sake, what makes you think it's never been through a rebuild? They were rebuilding these things before World War II was even over, of course all of the weren't obviously. [/QUOTE] Simply, it has no rebuild proof. Also, to my understanding, the rebuild process would almost assuredly result in some different manufactured parts being assembled into the rifle. My rifle is 100% winchester
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps
Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Posted: Oct 12 2018 at 10:45am |
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People switch out parts all of the time in an attempt to correct, especially with the prices of these things being as high as they are.
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Paul1262 wrote: