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M1E4 stock ...A little knowledge................

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New2brass View Drop Down
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: M1E4 stock ...A little knowledge................
    Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 10:18am
........is a dangerous thing.  

I normally do not post active auctions but hope most would easily spot the problems with this auction.


find a error get a point. First come first serve.

Knowledge is Power!


Tags: M1E3, M1E4, M1A3, M1A1


Edited by New2brass - Jul 12 2019 at 12:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 12:15pm
Rebuild mark on an experimental stock?
I believe the M1E4 experimental stock was developed by Springfield Armory, pictures I have seen look nothing like the one pictured in this auction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 4:08pm
It looks very much like a commercial stock often described as an Owens or ATI collapsible stock. I've seen them before for sale on Armslist and the CPM sight for $50-60. Nothing like the M1E4 stock shown in WB.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 5:01pm
Looks like the front sight has been altered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 7:50pm
Also, according to WB the M1E4 stock was made by Murray Corp. of America, Ohio, not Inland Div. as the listing claims (image #13).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2019 at 8:10pm
The sling and bag mentioned in the auction are not pictured. The serial number is not listed in the accompanying provenance document.

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 10:20am
Looks like a Johnson Arms, Inc. Spitfire model 5773 stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by m1a1fan m1a1fan wrote:

Looks like a Johnson Arms, Inc. Spitfire model 5773 stock.


Ted, Tried to find a picture of the of the Spitfire stock on the internet all I get is pictures of the WWII British Fighter Plane. I do think this "experimental" stock resembles the Bianchi M1 carbine telescoping stock from the 60's that is pictured under the Alpine Carbines in the Commercial Carbine section.

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_alpine.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 4:48pm
Wayne, WB 2 page 743
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 5:59pm
Advanced Technology Inc. made a synthetic stock that's almost identical to the one on GB. Here's a link.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=77854

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 6:07pm
Here's another one posted on Armslist described as an Owens aftermarket stock.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by m1a1fan m1a1fan wrote:

Wayne, WB 2 page 743


Yep, that stock on the Spitfire is the same Bianchi M1 carbine telescoping stock that is in the add under the Alpine Carbine section. Also looks exactly like the one JackP posted from Armslist described as the Owens Aftermarket. They all look just like the stock on GB except for the portion forward of the barrel band where the stock on GB looks angled instead of rounded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 07 2019 at 8:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 8:38am
a little over a day to go
 Up to 1800 with the reserve not met yet.
The top bidder is on a spending spree, bought two Winchester carbines in the past month.

Maybe he knows something we dont?🤐

There is a thing or two still missed!

I have not been following the auctions,  what do you think a real value of a Winchester in this condition is worth? The extras?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 10:04am
Okay Dan, I see two more things:

1). Blurred image of the barrel band suggests it might be a post war low "C" Type 3 cut down to a Type 2.

2). It's being propped up with a Beringer wine cork.

With the extra stock and bag I'd say it's worth maybe $1195.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 9:39pm
Seems that the seller has added images of the case, sling, and stock that were not featured when I first viewed the auction. I'm just a bit suspicious of the case marking, but it may just be that the photo is slightly out of focus.

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 12:21pm
The first thing that caught my eye was that Philips head screw. Another thing was the ever so slightly "high wood." The recoil plate seemed in too deep, but on a prototype, you never know.

Looking at WB page, 223 made it glaringly apparent that this stock is not an M1E4.

The M1E4 is a collapsible stock where the shoulder pad wraps into the pistol grip when collapsed.
There is also a provision for the oiler in the grip.
Though it was patented in late 1944, the application was made in 11-42.
Patent number 2,360,881 by John L. Lochhead, Springfield Engineer. 


Perspective wise the M1e4 looks longer than a regular stock. I think in development they were looking for a longer forearm for grip while collapsed.

The seller "Provides" a prop to make his case. (not to be confused with provenance)
His laminated paper, evidently provided by Marty McFly, States:
 
(1) It is an M1 E4 experimental stock.     The correct nomenclature is M1E4 with no space.
(2) Approved for standardization November 12, 1943.  The O.C.O. recommended that no future consideration to be given to the M1E4 sliding stock. It was the M1E3, with modifications, that was recommended to be standardized as 'Carbine Caliber .30, M1A3.
(3) Manufactured by Inland Div. Inland did not make any stocks, though their engineers did have input and did drawings.
(4) That the M1 E4 did not hold up in tests at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and was rejected. this negated his claim (2) but it was in fact rejected.
(5) An unknown but extremely limited number of these stocks were made. True, but the Stock is neither an M1E3 nor M1E4. I think I know where an M1E3 and the M1E4 are!
(6) Carbines used in the tests were  Winchester 1000052 & 1000117 Underwood Nos. 1350215 & 1384304 Only Winchester 1000052 was tested in the M1E4. The other three were used to test the M1E3 and Improved M1E3, according to WB. Maybe the seller has other documentation that those serials were used in later tests. Shocked

then there is the following his description:
Winchester made stock for the Inland Experimental Paratrooper M1-E4 Sliding stock only.

So which is it, Winchester or Inland? Is it too difficult to make a new placard? This may be a case "of a little knowledge" or maybe creative advertising. 
The seller may have obtained this carbine as it is with the information and may have claimed ignorance.
The seller was notified by someone other than myself that the stock is not as advertised. Information as to what it is was pointed out. So now does the seller cross into illegal activity? I, for one, would be cautious with anything this seller is offering.

Maybe the seller should of lowered the reserve while he had the fish on the hook.  I see it is relisted, hopefully buyers will do their due diligence and find this post. 

So what is the stock?
It was correctly guessed as a Bianchi


her is an advertisement from 1967


another from 1969


An early version from an old GB auction. I am unsure if the grip came that way or if modified by an owners. Also note the cap at the bottom of the grip.


See WB pg 798


Notes, According to WB Murray Ohio Corp submitted the M1e3 stock for testing, Springfield Armory developed the M1E4 with close cooperation with Murray Ohio Corp. On page 224 in it says that Murray Corp submitted both stocks. Detroit Mich. Page 226 shows the (model 2) M1E4 by Murray Corp.

Would a 1944 case use khaki webbing?

@ Wayne, Rebuild mark on an experimental stock? How about rebuild marks on a commercial stock? Might want to look at the other stocks CC very carefully.
@ Jack, Owens only made a synthetic stock that I am aware of.
I had one of these and the HG is shorter than a USGI.

As you pointed out that ATI also had a synthetic stock, Actually 2 of them. One was a copy of the Bianchi, the other is a folder with triangular buttstock.


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