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M1A1 Quiz 1

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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Got Para?

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    Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 2:54pm
As we all know, M1A1's can vary in price.  More info can be found here if you'd like a shortcut:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/modelM1A1.html

There can be nuances to categorizing M1A1's.  Some see more variation, some don't. Either way is o.k.

For simplicity, we will categorize para's as follows:

Type 1 - All original as it left the factory
Type 2 - All original as it left the factory
Type 3 - Arsenal
Type 4 - Commercial, etc...

Here are two, yes, only two pictures.



Which type is it?  Please explain why it fits into your chosen category.

Remember, there is no wrong answer.
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RedSpecial View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 3:14pm
I want to say type I since it has all the early features (band, sight and safety), the cheek pad cut out looks better than commercial ones and I have not seen a commercial that is high wood. The rivets are solid and sort of look like in those pictures they may be marked 7/4s and are blackened brass. My concern is the circle P on the pistol grip as I believe it should be on the back of the stock below the recoil plate.
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 4:39pm
The M1A1 pictured above looks like a type 1.  It has some of the type 1 features like a T-1 grip, flip sight and barrel band.  Another feature usually found on type 1 M1A1 stocks is a circle P on the back of the stock.  In this case, we can't tell if there is a circle P on the back of the stock

For now we'll focus on the circle P mark you noticed on the pistol grip.  What does it mean?

Jim Mock's M1A1 page contains clues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 8:04pm
Wasn't going this direction initially, but based on that discussion I'm going with 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SeoulFood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 10:44pm
Looks like Type 1 or 2. Flip sight, push-button safety, early barrel band and low wood stock would indicate it is in original configuration. That being said, these are only two pictures...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 10:56pm
Look closely at the pistol grip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 11:16pm
on a PC hold Ctrl and hit + to enlarge screen. Ctrl  - to shrink
Ctrl 0 will reset to defaulf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2016 at 11:21pm
Type 3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott C. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 1:24am
I am going with #3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SeoulFood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 3:53am
According to the 5th edition of U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production by Craig Riesch, Inland produced some M1A1's with circled "P" proofs at the rear of the stock or on the pistol grip. From what we can see, I still believe it is original configuration.
 
Source:
 
Riesch, Craig. The U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production. 5th ed. Tustin, CA: North Cape Publications, 1994. Print.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 8:17am
Will have to check my Reisch book which is an updated version. Check Jim Mock's M1A1 page quoted above for information about a P found anywhere on a pistol grip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cali201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 8:37am
Originally posted by RedSpecial RedSpecial wrote:

I have not seen a commercial that is high wood.


and now you have: This is a high wood, no m2 cut stock on one of my Inlands and it is a repro.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 8:56am
@cali

Did that stock come like that or did you do some work on it? If u did, nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cali201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 10:21am
came just like that but probaby has a few dings now from in and out of the safe 100 times banging into the other 10 carbines in there.

I had another high wood M1A1 stock repro but only for one day. I bought it off of the CMP forum for $150 and right after I said "I'll take it" another forum membrer offered me twice the money ($300) for it. I said wait till I get it and we will go from there. After I got it he offered me a CMP Rock Ola barreled receiver with front and rear sights for the stock plus $200 cash. And the good thing is he was about 30 miles from me. So for that repro hw stock and $200 I got a CMP Rock Ola!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 9:13pm
Went back and read Riesch's book, 7th edition.  He does mention some M1A1 stocks had circle P marks on the back of the stock and some had a mark on the pistol grip.  Then later in the rebuild section, he mentions the circle P mark as part of arsenal marks.  Those two sections always confused me about M1A1's.

CCNL 115 from 1986 mentions circle P marked grips before late 43.  However, read on....

Then in 1990 CCNL 161 provides an update that states, "The letter P in all of its forms seems to be used on the grip only in conjunction with a rebuilding operation."

Later on in the article entitled markings:

"An oversight in previous NL's should be made known.....As far as we know the circle P stamp is the only original proof mark found on the butt of the pistol grip on the M1 and on the rear of the forestock below the recoil plate on the M1A1.  This marking disappeared from Inland stocks near the end of 1943.  Any other forms of P, seems to be found in conjunction with other rebuilding marks."

Seems like the club is learning something and providing this new information to its readers...

And of course Jim Mock's M1A1 page previously mentioned.

Also, I checked all CCNL M1A1 COM's and could find none that referenced a circle P on the pistol grip and stated it was in original configuration.

Some notes about the M1A1 pictured above.....The flip sight doesn't appear to sit very well in the dovetail, maybe it's a shadow created by the picture?  Zoom in on the picture and let me know what you see.  Would love to see additional pics to see if the butt plate has the correct markings, if what looks like a type 1 grip has the right profile/measurements and if the back of the rivets are solid or hollow (they look hollow in the pics).  Would also like to see the stock and check the left side for any signs of markings.  Unfortunately, I can't, all I have is two pictures and a description.

Finally, take a look at this picture of an RIA M1A1.  Any similarities to the one pictured above like the leather or the circle P mark?  Note the RIA over EB inside a box.  The rivets on this one are solid, not hollow.



Again, no wrong answer.  Trying to get a conversation going and more importantly an evaluation for those who may not know M1A1's.  As mentioned, a lot of nuances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SeoulFood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2016 at 3:56am
Very interesting. The 5th edition also mentions only 5 manufacturers stamping the "P" proof, and during what time in their production they did this (early, intermittent). However, as you mentioned, in the rebuild section it also states that the "P" was a proof mark indicating a rebuild, those this does not specifically address M1a1's, but all carbines.
Jim Mock's page certainly indicates the "P" any where on the pistol grip was a final inspection mark for the rebuild arsenals. Since it also says circled "P"s were sometimes placed on the rear of the stock right out of the factory, I suppose it would also be possible for there to be a second "P" proof mark to visible on the rear of the stock of the same gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 06 2016 at 8:31am
The RIA example I provided above does have a circle P on the back of the stock.. It has been cut down from high wood to low wood. It has a upgraded rear sight.

Mistakes happens and updates provided. For all I know Riesch is trying to say the same thing. The key is obsevation, documentation and research to arrive at conclusions.

My sample size is small whereas ppl.like BQ97 have observed hundreds of M1A1's. Other members have also done research and a way more knowledaglbe than me,

Can post more pics of RIA later but welcome comments from others about what they see in the first post.

Just trying to understand what makes the carbine pictured in the first post worth big bucks.
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