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M1 S'G' IBM mix question

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ssjtristan View Drop Down
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    Posted: Dec 23 2018 at 11:37pm
Hi guys! First off some positive vibes...I love this website. I reference it all the time and usually find what I need. I really appreciate the work that has gone into it.

Now my question. A few months ago I purchased an IBM 3902XXX carbine unseen from an online auction. Few bad pictures, nothing that could tell me much. Took a chance on it and I was pretty pleased to see it was "unaltered" from WWII. Auctioneer said the family wanted to stay anonymous and did not know the history but did confirm the estate was a military vet...What time period, don't know.

Everything seems to be correct for the time frame according to the book I have down to the springs and safety BUT the stock and handguard are S'G' and the trigger is S'G'. My questions is...would it be possible that IBM used surplus S'G' parts to finish their guns? I can't find a record of that but would it be possible? No arsenal stamps or proof fire stamps. Thanks!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 24 2018 at 1:27am
There are known transfer of parts between prime contractors and undocumented or not yet found transfers of parts between prime contractors.
As far as I know IBM did not receive any parts from Saginaw or Grand Rapids plants. However IBM did send parts to Saginaw and Grand Rapids plants.

The issue here is your stock which I assume is made by Robert Irwin and marked RSG or R.S.G in slingwell.
The S'G' in box as well as the crossed cannons mean that stock was accepted on a carbine by ordnance out of the Grand Rapids plant.
If you had the IBM crossed cannons then it would be evidance of an undocumented transfer of an Robert Irwin stock to IBM.

Basically at some point the stock has been swapped out.

What butt plate and recoil plate?

I would be interested in seeing some pictures of the rear sight dovetail as well as the rear sight.
What is the marking in the safety.


Welcome to the forums!
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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 24 2018 at 10:59am
Merry Christmas and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!

Your last comment caught my attention. You said there were no "proof fire" stamps. Are you referring to the "P" markings typically found on the barrel? If original, you barrel should be marked "I.B.M. CORP.", maybe with a date. There should also be a small "P" stamped just forward of the barrel band. It is very unusual for a carbine to be missing this stamp.

I am anxious to see pictures!
JackP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 25 2018 at 9:34am
What's interesting here is the S'G' trigger and all the other metal parts are correct IBM. I have seen a few original appearing carbines with the metal all correct but the stock while period correct had an ordinance stamp from a different manufacture. I assumed the stocks were accidentally switched while the carbines were being cleaned in the field. I suspect that's what happened here. Need to look in CCNL's or War Baby to see if S'G' sent triggers to IBM. Check the recoil plate to see if it's an S'G' and look at the wear pattern on the face of the recoil plate and the back of the receiver were they meet. If it is a mirror image and the recoil plate is an S'G' then the stock and rest of the carbine have been together a long time. This would lend credence to the possibility of a stock switch occurring in the field. As stated in an earlier post the current stock left the S'G' factory and would not have had an IBM in it.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 25 2018 at 7:18pm
SSJtristan,

Welcome,
Your off to a great start having replies from 3 of the best.

Next, to have the wrong stock....... You did very well coming out of it with a S'G' stock. They are highly sought after.
Might have been put on in the field to replaced a damaged one, No telling.

We do love pictures.....

Happy Holidays,
Charlie-Painter777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssjtristan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 25 2018 at 11:08pm
Hey guys...thanks for the replies. I'll get more pics soon when I get time after work. I'll also look at everything that was suggested for sure. I'm excited to look at it again and do some research. Thanks!

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssjtristan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 26 2018 at 9:27pm


Hello, I hope the pictures help. The proof stamp I mentioned was lacking from the stock, not the barrel. The barrel has P proof stamp. The recoil plate is unmarked. Stock and handguard are marked RSG. Something in the trigger group is SG but not sure its the trigger. Let me know if the pictures help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssjtristan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 26 2018 at 9:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 26 2018 at 10:32pm
Look on the bottom of the recoil plate tang next to the hole for the screw and see if you see any letters. They would be on bottom in the small area between the screw hole and the end. Your butt plate screw is a non USGI replacement. Take some close up pics of the rear sight especially any markings you see. Overall I think you did well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 26 2018 at 10:36pm
Looking at your trigger housing it looks like a complete IBM. Can't see the trigger and mag catch markings but I would bet they too will be IBM marked. Don't know what you paid but the sum of the parts will be quite a bit. I think the trigger housing part you thought was SG is the sear which is marked SG-B that is correct for an IBM. Look on the mag catch where it engages the magazine and see if there are any markings on it. So far I'm sticking with my original observation that it is an original IBM that had the stock swapped sometime during its life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssjtristan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 27 2018 at 10:18pm


I still don't see a marking on the recoil plate, up, down or wherever. Probably an unmarked cast plate?
Rear sight is marked with a TN? and an S on one side and then the other. I am thinking the stock was replaced at one time but never made the rebuild process. Would this a be a GI bring back? How would it miss the rebuild process?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 27 2018 at 10:31pm
TN marked flip sights were made for National Postal Meter but several thousand were sent from NPM to IBM so that would be correct for your IBM. They show up on a lot of IBM's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote burrojack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 10 2020 at 4:35pm
HeyNew2Brass,

   I just happened to come upon your post from late December 2018, answering post about parts transfers between IBM and S'G'.  DO you have some documentation of IBM sending parts to S'G'??
I ask because I just recently acquired an S'G" carbine that is all S'G" EXCEPT for the slide...IBM.
Similarly, years ago, maybe 2010, I had purchased  a S'G' barreled action from the CMP. It had an Inland Trigger housing but also had an IBM slide. . . .Clearly the trigger housing got swapped out during an armory's upgrade, but maybe the slide stayed with the barreled action. Should I keep those IBM slides or replace them with S'G' slides??   Thanks for your help!  BTW, if you still have that S'G' stock, do you want to sell it??   Thank you,


       Burrojack. (John)

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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 10 2020 at 4:50pm
John, War Baby has listings of known transfers. a quick check shows only small parts were transfered to the Saginaw plant from IBM. Extractors, TH pins, Hammer spring plunger, plunger (pt no. A152983)

You lost me on the S'G' stock. Maybe someone else mentioned it?

Best, Dan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamesicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 10 2020 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by burrojack burrojack wrote:

……………. Clearly the trigger housing got swapped out during an armory's upgrade ……………  Burrojack. (John)
Or by Field Maintenance Armorers during WWII in-service use. 
I like WWII era carbines that look as though they might have seen use in combat - with stock dings & stains and maybe with some field maintenance replacement parts - James
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