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LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip

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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 9:42pm
JP
I pretty much agree
Pin just looks short....
Something appears to be killing the momentum
I'd be real surprised if it's going in to full battery, from what I've read here.
Guess we'll see when he follows up.
I hate not being able to be hands on.
Just repaired one a short while back that had too long of a Ejector- Eguns replacement, he'd got a deal on ;-( Causing light strikes and eject problems.
Semi local smith said new barrel was the only answer. Good cleaning, couple $'s in the part, he's now at about 700+ rounds down range, ready to clean again. Gotta be a sooty mess by now !

Figured I'd throw some thoughts out there on this one while the hood was still up ;-) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2018 at 4:13pm
A possible kill of momentum is the slide rubbing on the inside of the stock. have seen this several times where cycling the action everything checks out, but once in the stock a problem can be observed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2018 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

A possible kill of momentum is the slide rubbing on the inside of the stock. have seen this several times where cycling the action everything checks out, but once in the stock a problem can be observed.



Well now this is interesting, I have another reliability report to post, but this time I had a mix of light primer strikes, and stovepipes.

I again extensively cleaned the carbine before shooting, as well as changing the extractor spring for a "new" one that came in numrich kit. Also continued using the "new" recoil spring from that same kit.

I see two potential things that are killing momentum...


First pic shows some kinda rubbing inside the stock...which as noted could be killing momentum. But when I assembly everything....it isn't touching to my naked sense.


The second is where the hammer is appearing to hit the trigger housing causing a burr there.



Interesting about this last session...ended it with tula ammo, and had only 2 outta 45 failures. Go figure


USGI WRA M1 carbine reliability report (4/18/18)


Firing pin length:



RE: Burrs on the hammer face or rear bolt face... I checked, and everything seems smooth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote topsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2018 at 10:38pm
For one..you may have a bad barrel/chamber. Everything you mention leads to barrel/chamber. Extractor...firing pin. The thicker primers are no help either.. Stove piping...not enough gas to fully blow the bolt all the way back...recoil spring..?? Sorry to say, as a retired US Govt Aromrer, the only intelligent way to come up with answers, is to have the weapon in hand...
Opinions are like (you know what) everyone..has one..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 9:11pm
Gentlemen, after a solid month of doing nothing but trying to fix this carbine....spending $150 on tools and parts to do so, was on it's literal last leg this morning at the range.   If it had any light primer strikes, or stovepipes after a fourth extensive cleaning, inspecting, replacing parts, and then test firing at the range, I was going to immediately start the part out process to get my money back.

Last night's prep for today's testing was by far the most extensive effort on my part to clean, find, and address the problem/s.

I went ahead and removed the staked piston nut and piston in part because I was comfortable doing it as I'm a long time AR builder who stakes lots of parts on them.   Once the piston and nut were removed I cleaned inside the area, and used a proper sized drill bit to ensure a clear gas pathway inside the gas port. I then also replaced the existing piston for a new one just because it couldn't hurt.

Next, I took one the longer ejector springs, and a newly purchased ejector type 3 to replace my type 1 that was in it. I grinded flat a little bit off the spring to bring it closer to Reisch's specs, and then spent what felt like eternity getting the ejector nub to seat inside the tapered hole. That said, once it was done it felt much better than the one it had in it...as the ejector fits rather loose inside the spring whereas my new one fits like a glove, very tight. Based on later evidence I'll note, this change to a new stiffer spring and more importantyly from a Type 1 to type 3 ejector yielded extremely dramatic results.

Next I replaced the extractor spring with a new one that was slighttly longer than Reisch's spec.

Next I replaced the unmarked firing pin it had for a new Quality Hardware marked NL-Q firing pin that was in spec according to Reisch, however it too was on the smaller side of the acceptable limit. Upon examing both firing pins at 20x, I noticed very little differencees. There was a slight ring or perhaps mushrooming of the firng pin tip on the existing one. However the new NL-Q one did have a signifacantly smaller channel cut or removed area that captured it when the bolt is fully assembled vs the older one in it.

Next I replaced the shorter trigger group housing pin with a longer one that I had in the "rebuild kit" I bought that included almost all of these items.

Next, I replaced the recoil spring with a new one that came in the kit, yet still measured short at 10 3/16", with a little stretch it hits the spec no problem.

Next to address the potential issue of the stock rubbing killing momentum I built temporary bedding supports that mounted on the stock's bridge, and then going the entire length of the channel at the end of stock. Again, to test stock rubbing or other parts rubbing against the stock negatively. Ultimately I seriously doubt this is what magical made my WInchester a 100% reliable rifle again.

Next I installed a NOS M underlined mag catch for my 3ord mags.

120rds of 5 different types of ammo included 30-40 rds of tula steel.....every single one was perfect and discharged. Had two mag issues when trying 30rders but I know that's mag related not rifle.

Even more interesting and telling that somehow this rifle got the magic cure.....all 120+ rds landed b/t 2-3oclock, and about 4 feet away. Very strong ejections, and unreal ejection pattern consistently. All 120+rds would have landed in a 2x2 box I bet.   It was so consistent, and clean that two different shooters made comments about it.

I don't want to jinx myself but today was such a dramatic positive expierence, with zero malfunctions, that I believe it's been fixed. The accuracy was also fantastic...My little carbine put the beat down on 2 ARs in .223, a Mini 14, and a 45magnum lever gun on a 125yd steel torso challenge. Once I got my Kentucky wndange hold....I was getting 95% hits whereas the best AR got about 60-70%.

Also collected my first bit of tech data on my rifle, and the carbines in general to some degree.   

Factory .30 carbine ammo 50yd evaluation.....



Lastly meet a great new friend who got to liquidate a CMP store/warehouse...and has a huge array of no doubt true USGI parts as they came in WWII with the packaging and such. Some packages are even dated. He also has a number of USGI 15rd mags still in their wrappings from WWII. Thousands of the various small springs, some real collectable pieces like IP recoil lug. I'm sure you guys have seen this a million times, but to dig through the real USGI part crates made feel like a child all over again. Ultimately it was his authentic parts that fixed the problem as well.



I can't even begin to describe the relief first and foremost I feel now, secondly I can't thank this forum and several members enough for contining to try and help me even when we were beating what looked like a dead horse. Thirdly, I can't sum up in a brief manner just how damn fun it was today having a 100% reliable carbine that was shooting laser beams.

The sweet is never sweet without the bitter as they say, and the amount of knowledge, and new gunsmithing techniques I've gained in a relative short time having to deal with this big mystery problem is certainly worth something imho.   Also definitely a reminder to myself to not give up when you care about something immensely, as you never know when things will work out.

Thanks gents so much, and if folks are interested Ill continue to posts my data, pics, and perhaps a YT vid or two....maybe one where I test the full envelope of it's performance at long ranges...as that is kinda my channel's specialty.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 9:49pm
That is good news, glad to hear you finally got that Carbine running right.
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LMTmonoMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 10:04pm
Thanks Wayne, appreciate your excellent replies in this thread, as well as your service. In another life I'd love to be a Marine:)
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patrickduis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 2:55am
That is good news and congratulations with this good result!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 12:40pm
Wow Man! You jumped in over your neck and made it happen big time! Congrats! I loved the Marines too as gave Antos guys an ice machine for their club, helped mount a 30 cal mini in the back of a convoy escort Ford jeep, supplied 40' refridgerated trailer for their parties, installed an aftermarket air conditioning unit in a Chev black sedan with two gold stars on license plate which Charles and I tested on a hot afternoon by driving into Marine headquarters gate where Rob the President's son in law operated out of. You should have seen the salutes we got! Marines gave us a Jeep (sure it was stolen) I gave to my LT. and they supplied us with Crown Royal by the case. And we did much more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 9:19pm
I'm glad to hear that your light primer strike/stovepipe problems are behind you. It sounds like you are having pretty good success with accuracy too. So far I haven't found a carbine that will match my AR's in accuracy. I have a .300 AAC Blackout with an E.R. Shaw barrel that's sub-MOA with Freedom Munitions reloads. My best M1 Carbine accuracy with an early QHMC has been achieved with Federal American Eagle ammo. I average 1.362 MOA with it vs. 2.65 MOA with American Freedom or 3.85 MOA with Sellier & Bellot ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2018 at 6:26pm
The SAGA continues......singling out the source for the problem, Kryptonite???

I go yesterday to confirm the rifle was indeed 100% like it should be, and boom all my light primer strikes/FTFs starting occurring the second shot into the range session. I had several more during the first 10rds I fired.....at that point, I almost threw the rifle in the lake I was so mad....but I remember that I shimmed the stock last time, and as I already mentioned above, I didn't think it was part of the fix so didn't do it this time. Not to mention I feel it's prob. bad for the carbine to have it's barrel floating higher than normal, and requiring more force than usual to get the barrel band settled over the barrel. Also while it def. fixed all the reliability problems last week, the barrel band wouldn't stay affixed in the proper location and it would float forward after a box or two of shooting with it. At any rate before trashing the rifle I created a makeshift shim at the range with folded cardboard from a ammo box roughly the same size as the other shims I made last week. Once I did this......the gun didn't have another single FTF or light primer strike after 135rds. So I think it's now safe to say that whatever my epic problem is, it lies within the stock no pun intended.

Anyways, I've yet to read about this highly unique problem of mine regarding a stock issue from another carbine owner having problems after reading copious amounts of troubleshoot post on several M1 carbine forums.


I don't even know where to look inside the stock to see if I need to add material that at one time was lost thus making what I can only assume the receiver group going lower than design inside of the stock. Also the barrel band retaining pin sits a bit to low in it's channel and doesn't spring forward enough to really anchor the barrel band in place


Do you have an opinion on my stock's problem, and if it can be fixed. I need to find out if my stock can be fixed, and if not buy another stock...especially a WRA if I can find one. If I can't figure this out than I obviously need a new stock, and yours seems great given it functions perfectly fine with a barreled receiver inside it. So I'm very interested in your stock. What do you mean by it needs filler....it that the area by the buttstock that is chipped?

The temp fix: Shims



Size of the shim....




Lastly, my barrel band spring is too low because of the channel cut out for it in the stock empeds it from going up more, and it also barely engages the barrel band detent hole as it's not bent forward enough, as well as being slightly short due to the angle that its at when engages the detent hole, whereas a straight one has the length to clear the detent hole wall. Suggestions, or tricks?



I really want to keep this stock as it's a WRA model with no rebuild arsenal marks, or anything but the WRA cartouche. Beyond that, I find it's finish to be beautiful especially in the sunlight...when you can even see some faint tiger stripe markings.

You can kinda see the stripes in the pic below from the range session yesterday....


I really am sorry to keep asking for help gents, and I truly to appreciate each and every reply, and any help offered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2018 at 7:37pm
From your description, it sounds like your problem, at least one of them, seems to be the slide dragging inside the stock? This could conceivably be alleviated by raising the barrel a bit with your shims.

I would try the following - Take some chalk dust, flour, cornstarch, or similar and dust the well inside of your stock where the slide tracks. Then without your "shims", assemble the rifle properly (barrel should NOT pop up inside the channel prior to installing the handguard - that's not proper) and manually cycle the action a few times. Then disassemble the rifle and see if there is any evidence of rubbing inside your stock. That would be where you need to remove wood. Perhaps stock is warped somehow?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2018 at 8:03pm
Simply drive the spring out and put a sufficient amount of paper matches,used of course in the channel to raise the spring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 9:33pm
Thanks blackfish, and Charles for such excellent suggestions. I plan on doing both suggestions.

First to blackfish's recommendation:

This truly was a fantastic suggestion as I indeed discovered an area in the stock in which the slide is rubbing against. Below are the pictures detailing my results...

Entire left inside and bottom inside of the front well of stock were rub free as shown below..

left side of assembled action/slide


Now upon looking at the right inside of the stock, I find a nice rub mark on the right inside wall of the stock, and a corrosponding marking on the slide...






Not sure how to proceed from here, as I really hesitate to grind on the stock. Any suggestions?

I will report back on how Charles' suggestion works once I assembly the carbine again.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 11:37pm
Hmm, is your recoil plate screwed in tight?
Try loosening a bit and see if it still rubs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2018 at 11:28am
Good idea Dan. Not only tight but is your recoil plate straight? Remove the recoil plate and reinstall the screw. Is it straight lying in the vertical plane of (pseudo)symmetry of the stock or is it crooked? If the action is twisted going into the stock, that might result in the rubbing you see. At least check that before taking and angle grinder to your slide or sand paper to your stock to remove the offending material
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2018 at 8:18pm
You guys are really awesome, stuff is starting to make more sense because of your suggestions.

Upon checking my recoil plate to receiver fitment, I noticed that the bottom portion won't go flush up against my receiver, is this a problem and the potential issue?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 5:07am
When you first put the action into the stock, that apparently poor fit is why the barrel is elevated a bit and needs to be pushed down into the barrel channel initially during assembly. Bouncing the assembly's buttstock on the floor will usually seat the action so everying lies flat again and you can put the handguard in place. Ever wonder why buttplates are so beat? Ain't from recoil.

The recoil plate must have some "pinch" on the reciever but not too much. Unless your recoil plate has been overly "tightened" elsewhere, I bet you could push it on to the receiver by hand.

Is the recoil plate screw aligned with the stock, i.e. eschutcheon inserted into the stock "straight" or at an angle?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:05am
I do not think the plate should go all the way to bottom of receiver. It looks as if there is a designed taper fit. Cannot look into drawings or examples today.


What I have found is over tightened recoil plates may contribute to the rubbing problem. seems exactly in the same spot as you found.

What I do is loosen the recoil plate screw, insert action, rack the slide a few times to settle the action.
Sometimes I put my finger on front of trigger guard  and pull back when racking to help the settling along.

From there I tighten the recoil plate screw till the barrel just starts to rise.I take out the action and repeat a few times to get the recoil adjusted just so.
After that there is no reason to adjust or remove recoil bolt as it is not needed for take down.

Now check for rub. If still rubbing then try a different recoil plate. Also possible stock is warped. If i was to modify anything it would be the stock, not the slide!

Now mind you I am collector, not a shooter. So I do not know how or if this affects accuracy. Will let others debate, but as I understand it the CMP competition rules do not allow for bedding of the recoil plate

I have seen washers under the recoil plate, JB weld or bedding of the recoil plate. I do not think the recoil plate was designed to be so tight into the wood, rather I think it was meant to be lifted and bolt as an adjustment. If you look at a RSG stock you will see a great many left the factory with a decent gap around the recoil plate area. I do not think ordnance would have accepted these if there was an issue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 12:47pm
Picture (shamelessly plagiarized from BQ97) shows that the intalled recoil plate should fit receiver without "gaps".



It looks like your tab which fits between the receiver prongs for the trigger housing may be a bit wide. If you can't push your's together better then you might dress the recoil plate's tab with a file for a closer fit.
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