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LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip

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LMTmonoMan View Drop Down
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    Posted: Apr 02 2018 at 11:16pm
Hey guys, love your forum, and the membership....thanks so much for all the info I've been reading over the last 3 weeks non stop on here. So much great knowledge!

So without further ado, and doing so in as concise of manner as possible I will list the rifle specs, and the problems I need help working out. Today I took a Winchester mix carbine to the range for the first time. I just bought it two weeks ago for my father who had his stolen some 40yrs ago. It's a special rifle to say the least for the both of us.   I waited two weeks to shoot it in order to fully strip, inspect, fill out a carbine data sheet, and then lube it properly. I also needed some time to get a few types of ammo, and a few new/different types of mags. Below you will see the extent I was able to break the rifle down in the first picture (all got disassembled outside the bolt extractor/ejector, and unstaking the gas piston).



Pictured below is the complete Carbine Data sheet for this rifle, denoting the particular parts that might be relevant to you guys who potentially can help me.



Now that you guys know the rifle's specs....here are the types of ammo and mags I used today....regardless of which mag I tried, I experienced malfunctions that to me at least seemed unrelated to mag issues.

AMMO:   Lake City USGI Surplus Ball Carbine M! ammo 110gr FMJ
      
        PRVI PPU 110gr FMJ brass cased

        TULAmmo 110gr. FMJ steel cased


MAGs:    3 USGI excellent condition 15rd (1 winc/2 marked "u")

        1 USGI NOS 30rd unmarked mag

        2 brand new Korean 30rd mags



So now you know the rifle, mags, and ammo....last part is the actual malfunctions. Out of 100rds fired 50-60rds malfunctioned in one way or another. There were 3 main types of malfs I experienced.

1. The first type of malfunction I experienced, and by far the most prevalent to occur was light primer strikes resulting in the round not firing, needing to be ejected, and another fresh round chambered in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 40 of them were light primer strikes. I was ultimately able to recycle most of the light primer struck rounds except for a few I saved to take pics of in order to post here for help. The pics below illustrate the light primer strikes in comparison to a couple of actual spent cases with primer strike marks that were deep enough to trigger ignition of the primer




2. The second type of malfunction I had was stovepipe jams resulting in a simple flick of the thumb to clear, however once the case was cleared, bolt sent home with next round chambered....it would always then be a light primer strike. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 5 were stovepipe jams.

3. The third type of malfunction I had was basically a bolt over base malfunction resulting in the mag needing to be removed, clearing of the round, reinserting the mag, and then chambering a new round. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 3 were bolt over base type malfs.

4. Lastly, the fourth type of malf I experienced were stuck cases in the barrel, requiring a wood dowel and heavy tap in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 2 were stuck cases. Noteworthy is the fact that both stuck cases happened with the TULAmmo steel cases.


So in summery,

50 malfunctions in a little less than 100 rounds fired.

40 were light primer strikes

5 were stovepipe jams

3 were bolt over base malfs

2 were stuck cases


Finally, and why I shouldn't have ever bought my first boxes of steel crap.....3 split cases occurring only with the cheap TULAmmo steel cases stuff. Never seen this happen before, not sure if it's ammo, or it's a headspace/chamber issue???/




PLEASE help gents, I mainly own Colt/LMT/KAC rifles these days, and they go honestly thousands and thousands of rounds without 1 failure, year after year (i know apples to oranges, but either way a rifle should function correctly given it's quality built). I have little experience in dealing with problematic guns, and this is the first firearm I've ever owned that jammed right off jump street. Guess I've been lucky til now:)

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blackfish View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:24am
Light strikes probably due to dirt buildup INSIDE the bolt. Take it apart, clean and oil it and I'd think you would be good to go.

Feed issues, assuming good ammo, could be due to magazine or its catch. I can't really tell from your picture (sorry old eyes) but 30 round mags require require the late catch to support the extra weight.

Not sure what's up with the Tulammo cases. I've fired hundreds of rounds (sometimes it's stupid cheap) without your issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 6:53am
Looks like #4 on the datasheet for the mag catch.  Doesn't have the "arm" for 30 round mag support.Did this occur with 30 rnd mag or 15s too?

How did it do on the LC ammo?

Has the headspace been checked? You're having several symptoms which could be contributed to excessive headspace.i.e. splitting of the case neck, light primer strikes, failure to fire.

As stated by blackfish, I would disassemble the bolt and clean/inspect the bolt components and firing pin. In addition to cleaning residue buildup inspect the firing pin tip to make sure it looks eccentric.  FWIW firing pin specs listed in Kuhnhausen's are OAL 2.957"-.004" and pin protrusion .048" min to .060" max.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cali201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 8:12am
I will never use steel case in my GI carbines steel=hard!
Before you take apart the bolt make sure you get a bolt tool to do so. https://www.ebay.com/i/263581838395?chn=ps&dispItem=1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 9:23am
I spend a lot of time cleaning my S'G' for the sheer fun of it. You problems sound more like dirt, out of speck. expanded chamber, the split cartridges indicate this. I have been using TulAmmo by the thousands without any misfires.
Check the possibility of a re barrel and overhaul the bolt.
I hope your able to get it working properly, they deserve all the TLC you can give.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 11:08am
The carbine is designed to prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer if the bolt is not in full battery. This is to prevent out-of-battery discharges due to long cases, dirty chamber, etc. Did you notice whether the bolt was fully rotated into battery when you had a light strike misfire? Being partially out-of-battery could result in light strikes. Usually the cause of this is a weak recoil spring. Check the length. It should be 10 1/4", no more , no less. Judging from the picture, your recoil spring looks "sprung". Stretching it does not fix the problem. Also, replace it with a USGI spring, not an aftermarket spring. Cost about $10.


BTW, welcome to the Carbine Club Forum from New Mexico!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 3:48pm
Well after spending all morning first calling all firearm stores, and smiths in the area....every single one of them didn't have either a bolt disassembly tool, nor did they have a .30carbine headspace gauge.   

After another firearm forum also suggested potential headspace issues, and when I further called a few older gents who specialize in these rifles, one a Col. whom I believe was Special Forces in Vietnam, and another gent that just knows these guns like a map also said it could be a possibility. One had the headspace gauge and bolt tool, the other had a bolt tool + another method for us to check headspace.....and both offered to have me over to their own personal lands/homes and would use their tools and know how until I had a sewing machine..., hardly met these older gentlemen. MERICA baby! With the idea of buying my own one time use $100 headspace guage for a carbine.....plus potential other parts that might be required if the headspace isn't the issue after all...I was really starting to question if I got had for a cpl hundred on a gun that someone knew had a catastrophic or major defect such as headspace on a carbine where it would have to be rebarreled or be matched to a bolt, and obviously that usually means one needs to buy/own multiple bolt groups in order to find one to match. So that problem would have been essentially a game over for me..I'd accept I got con'd and sale at a significant loss.

So as you can imagine, I was slowly spiraling down the toilet of a rare M1 carbine - Mk Lemon model.....when I said screw it let's do this inspection again. I started with the bolt given I just now learned a new handy way to pop the bolt by simply maneuvering the slide over the lugs on the bolt.   Once I popped it out, it was very dirty already after only 60 or so rounds we fired yesterday. That called for it to be soaked in MPro7 for 30minutes, then I scrubbed the heck out of the crevis and boltface, especially the extractor area. Once I got it real clean on the bolt face I went to examine this time using a 10x magnifier to better help see problems.....PRAISE Carbine Williams.

Houston...we have figured out the problem, it's one helluva extractor lip failure, and once you guys see the pics you'll wonder how I was able to even shoot a single round given how the cracked extractor is bent into the bolt face, covering a significant area of the bolt face where the bullet should seat.

I'm currently researching the appropriate, or best functioning USGI extractor model to buy today online. Also where to get one would be fantastic as well. This has to be the 1000% cultprit, but do you guys have any part suggestions that I should buy to have on hand?

SO RELEIVED! THANKS gentlemen for all the wonderful replies and help. You guys make the community truly feel like one, the generosity in lending a helping hand from some of you to basically a stranger is a model of behavior we should all try to add into our own lives.

PICS: nasty failure of the extractor..


side view


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:24pm
So now the question has to be, what caused the extractor to break like that, also the face of your ejector looks mushroomed, may just be the picture but it does not look right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:48pm
The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged. However, the damaged extractor could definitely cause light strikes probably due to failure to fully lock into battery. Did you notice any bulging at the base of the cartridge?

Still think the recoil spring might also be a contributor. I enlarged your image and measured the spring compared to other parts of known dimensions and determined that it was only 9 3/4" long. If I'm wrong, never mind. But please do check this or you still may have problems after replacing the extractor.

Also, my only experience with steel cased ammo was on my son's AR15. He wanted to try a box of Tula. We were only able to fire one round. The case stuck like those you reported. We also had to drive it out with a dowel. We were lucky, the extractor was okay but there was an extractor shaped chunk missing from the rim of the Tula cartridge. Needless to say, that was the last time we tried to use steel case ammo...anywhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 6:26pm
Awesome replies guys and thanks for checking my spring size...here is what I just ordered...


Parts coming from Numrich.....


928640

1× MAINTENANCE TOOL KIT
$31.45
   
seems to good to be true....they had the repro bolt tool alone for $31.45, and then they had the tool kit for the same price that had not only the same bolt tool in it, but a piston nut wrench, and the trigger spring tool.   Who the hell would buy just the bolt tool when for the same price you get another $20+ tool, and then another $10+ tool for that same price. I better shut up and just appreciate it before the company sees their era

1105970

1× EXTRACTOR (WINCHESTER - MARKED W)
$21.15

545220

Hopefully this is the most current generation of extractor or the one with the most reliability and longevity....I couldn't find a place that sold all the different variants of the extractors except one place that had the early one with angled lip. Is type III extractors the latest designed one?

1× SPRING KIT
$17.90

545210

2× MAGAZINE SPRING, REPLACEMENT (FOR 15 RD MAGS CAN BE CUT DOWN SLIGHTLY FOR 5 RND)
$7.70

542310B

1× EXTRACTOR SPRING PLUNGER, NEW REPRODUCTION

$3.70

Last three items are all new springs, prob. won't use them right away given the new extractor gets the rifle running perfect, but I'm sure I'll need them in time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged.


jackp, Agree, after looking at it again I believe you are correct, type 1 ejector. I guess the angle of the picture had me thinking it looked odd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 7:14pm
It is a type 1 ejector, as it took me some time to finally figure it out and come to the conclusion to go ahead a record it that way on the data sheet.

Why they did the design like that I have no clue but would love to know the engineer's original thought on that type 1.

Just for kicks, I whipped out what I feel is the best Bolt group made for a combat rifle...the MWS or the Brit's L129A1 BCG vs the mighty M1 carbine bolt group

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 8:58pm
You bring up a good point. As far as I know, there is nothing documenting the reason behind the original Type 1 ejector design. There is documentation suggesting that subsequent changes were made to improve ejection angle, to prevent ejected cases from hitting the operating slide and also to reduce manufacturing costs. The revision table on the original engineering drawings should note the reason for change but all Ordnance engineering drawings I've seen have been redacted to remove this information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 17 2018 at 8:13pm
Range report from two days ago.....

Prior to shooting it this time, I again thoroughly cleaned the entire rifle paying special attention now to the completely disassembled bolt, chamber, and front area of the inside of the receiver. The "USGI" spring kit from Numrich was udder garage.....light rust on springs, some kinda hardened cosmoline type stuff inside of the springs as well...that said, I could have dealt with that, but the real problem with the kit was every spring was outta spec by either it's OAL length, or number of coils. The new recoil spring in the kit measured slightly shorter than the one already in the rifle. Both are around 10.15". The bolt tool and trigger spring tool looked fine though, and both functioned fine as well. The piston wrench was so rusty it looked like it came off Normady beach. The only spring I used out of the kit was the hammer spring, and it didn't have the right number of coils (26.5), however the one in the rifle was bent by a previous owner. Lastly I ordered two USGI 15rd. mag springs + the one that came in the replacement spring kit.....all three springs were shorter than the ones in my Winc/Union Hardware/Inland USGI mags that had most likely been in them for decades. So can't even use the "new" mag springs.

So I cleaned, lubed, replaced extractor with "w" marked one, and lastly put in a "new" hammer spring.   I also bought several more boxes of factory ammo form different companies for function testing as well.

While I dramatically reduced the number of failures, the overall number of light primer struck rounds was still way to high for any self respecting auto loading rifle, much less a military designed one.   Even one failure can ruin a string on a target, put together a dozen of them....and you'll start truly hating that particular firearm.   This rifle, and dumb little GSG-5PK are the only guns I've ever owned that had more than 2-3 failures over years and years of shooting with them.

The worst part is that so many people have had this same issue, but when you research each case, it's usually a different culprit in each one. I've read about this problem being created by a dirty chamber/bolt, bad recoil/hammer spring, outta spec inner receiver bridge for the firing pin, untrimmed or too long cases, firing pin/bolt damage, outta spec hammer that is improperly striking the firing pin and instead hitting part of the bolt's rear area, and probably one or two more causes I'm forgetting at the moment. Oddly enough, headspace is also a potential cause for light primer strikes, however I've yet to read/hear a case where the actual remedy to this was a confirmed outta spec headspace.

Lastly, I ran some of the various factory loads over my Ohler 35P chrono just to get a idea, as I'm waiting to do a real accuracy/velocity report when I have a 100% functioning rifle.   Only did a 5rd string for each type so the standard deviation measurements aren't of any real meaning, but knowing how hot each type of ammo was helped add one more constant in this problem rifle full of variables.

Just for a small data point, I ran three types over the chrono......

Aquila 110gr. FMJ: Median was 1937fps (other's testing has shown my same number for Aquila, however I heard several years ago it ran as low as 1750fps.       

USGI lake city 110gr. Ball LC 72: 1943fps (seemed slow)     

Monarch(PPU/PRVI) 110gr. FMJ: 1977fps(also seen other peoples results showing low to mid 1900 range)


Here is the spreadsheet for the reliability testing from this last range trip....
USGI WRA M1 Carbine reliablity test (4/11/18)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 18 2018 at 10:35am
Great report! However, after reading it a couple of times I wasn't able to determine that you confirmed that the bolt was in full battery when you had light strikes. Even if the bolt is fully forward but not rotated into full battery, it will cause light strikes.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 3:37am
I also had some issues with my 1943 IBM .30M1 with my reloads. When using factory PRVI ammo I never had a problem, but when I started reloading using S&B primers I sometimes needed to fire them up to 3x before they actually fired. After replacing the S&B small rifle primers with Federal I never ever had a misfire. My armourer told me the S&B primers (look like brass) are a little bit harder than the Federal ones (that look like nickel plated).
On your picture I see PRVI boxes, did those rounds all fire ok? Or is the box just used for your reloads.
I reload previously fired PRVI/S&B brass with 13.3grs Vihtavuori N110 behind a 110grs FMJ bullet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 4:22pm
Has the firing pin been measured?
Is the Ejector too long ? Or binding ?

It's like something is killing the forward energy.
Like JackP, I'd want to know that bolt is FULLY rotated.
Check for burrs on the left lug's rail.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 7:59pm
I just set 4 bolts upright like in the picture and tried to view them from the same angle.
On all of mine the tip of the firing pin was much more visible than the one here.

Please measure your firing pin........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 9:10pm
Painter, I agree that it looks like the firing pin is short but then I would expect light primer strikes to be 100%. The OP's report shows the rate of light strikes to be only 12.5% (10 out of 80). I believe his problem is more likely related to binding of the bolt during final rotation into battery or perhaps hammer face to bolt interference (there is only a few thousandth of an inch clearance between them at full battery).
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