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Looking for info on the U.S. 104th I.D. |
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patrickduis 
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Joined: Jan 12 2016 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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 Topic: Looking for info on the U.S. 104th I.D.Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 4:40am |
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Since a few weeks I became active as a volunteer in a very interesing museum in the south of the Netherlands, next to the Belgian border.
This museum is devoted to the U.S. 104th Infantry Division "Timberwolves" and has lots of personal articles that children of veterans donated. Of course, there are .30M1s that were found later after the war, in this region. Does anybody have more information on this infantry division? Many thanks! See the link to the museum here: http://www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl/ Unfortunately in Dutch, but google translate will do wonders. Very interesting museum, I'm currently busy with investigating/cleaning/preserving the .30M1s and Garands. Many thanks in advance! gr. Patrick (mid south-Netherlands, next to Belgian border)
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
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Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 11:35am |
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A good place to start would be the National Timberwolf Pups Association site, which was started by the children of those in the 104th had the National Timberwolf Association which was formed following the war. then there is the Center for Military History I am sure everyone wants to see pics of the carbines. Any chance of datasheets? Do you ever make it down to Luxembourg? There is (or was) the 385th Bomb Group Memorial Museum Perlé, Grand Duchy of Luxembourg The website link I have no longer works. They do have a facebook page. I was sent a picture of a carbine they had on display which may be an item of interest with special history. I did email a few times but never got a response, which may have been a language issue. |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Aug 13 2021 at 3:12am |
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Thanks for the info, I think Cees Jacobs (the curator of the museum) already has contact with the pups because many of them already visited the museum and donated personal items of the veterans.
I see hem next monday again so I'll check. I'm going to make better pictures of all the carbines incl. details. I already photographed all buttplates of the ones I cleaned, that's for sure. But I want to make nice pictures in daylight, since the inside of the museum is quite dark. I never come to Luxembourg, but I'll try to contact them, people there speak German and French. I can speak German relatively well. So I'll try. Can you already send me the picture and some background info, so I already know a few things more about it? |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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Quietus
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Joined: Aug 10 2019 Location: north Wyoming Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Posted: Aug 13 2021 at 11:14am |
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I was in the 104th Division (Trng) for a short time in 1990. At that time it was an Army Reserve Training division. The part of it that was based in a Spokane WA armory, was a drill sergeant company. Had a 1LT commander, an E-5 supply sergeant, about half a dozen E-6 drill sergeants, and an E-7 Senior Drill. It was a real small unit, for being called a Company. All drills were MOS 11B. The mission was to do fill-in work at various Basic Training sites around the country.
Curiously, I'd seen some Timberwolf drill sergeants several years earlier, towards the end of my Basic Training at Ft Dix. They were helping to run field exercises. I thought they were much nicer people than the regular drills.
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patrickduis
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Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 9:37am |
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And we are on or way cleaning the museum carbines.
Note: the following ones are not 100% sure local finds, there is one that has been found in our area (so it almost certainly belonged to the 104th). That one will be cleaned later. Brand: Underwood folding stock (welded fixed) S/N 273?4426 (july '43 - feb '44) Stamps: 2x AI on barrel 4-62 & 8-65  |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 9:44am |
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Brand: Saginaw S/N 1867398 (march - sept '43)
Stamps: SA (Saginaw) barrel 6-51 with P proofmark rebarreled by AI 1-64 Also SA receiver  |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 9:49am |
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Brand: Inland S/N 4943240 (jan-aug '44)
Stamps: Inland barrel 1-44 rebarreled by AI 3-63 B.I. marking on receiver   |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 10:03am |
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Brand: Underwood S/N 1357885 (nov '43 - july '44)
Stamps: early Underwood barrel 11-42 P proofmark & flaming bomb Barrel stamped with nr. 764 (not clear what that means)    |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
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Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 10:24am |
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Do you know what the AI is? It has to be whoever did the work. You say re-barrel on the Inland but the date seems correct. Could the AI and date be a test, gauge and function check date? The BI on the barrel flat (not receiver) means it was made by Brown Lipe Chapman division of General Motors for Inland your Saginaw serial is a Grand Rapids produced carbine. Barrel is clearly a rebarrel. What is meant by SA receiver? The 764 may be a date? I wish we had museums that I could volunteer cleaning carbines!
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Smokpole
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Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1057 |
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Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 6:51pm |
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BTW that front sight is on backwards...
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Jond41403
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Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 6:54pm |
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great eye on the front sight!
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 5:30am |
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When you ever come to our country, you need to visit this museum since the focus is on U.S. military equipment. We have lots more of course. We are anxiously waiting for the replica M4 Sherman tank. We're going to fit it with accessories which we have plenty. Pictures and stampings will follow.
About the AI, that was the Dutch military arsenal "Artillerie Inrichtingen" Hembrug near Haarlem. They rebarreled many Dutch .30M1s, as well as Garands. They also built the famous AR10 rifle for mr. Stoner. Thanks for the info on the B.I. marking I also suspected the 764 was a date, like July -64. German proofmarks also always are dated this way. But this one has no German proof-marks. |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 10:31am |
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And here is the most valued .30M1 of our museum.
A real local barn-found Underwood .30M1 with original high-wood stock, flipsight and push-safety. It was found by children of a military historian after his disease in the town of our museum: Achtmaal, so it is a real local find. According to the story it was left in a barn after men of the 104th slept there overnight. The finders went with it to the museum (many years ago) and the conservator told them to 1st go to the police to have it checked and registered. The finders kept the magazine pouch with 2 extra magazines as a souvenir, the conservator tries to get them also so we can add it to this historical piece That is how it came to the museum. It has never been cleaned so that was my task. There is a high probability that this particular .30M1 has been used by the 104th, here in the area of the village Achtmaal in '44. Since this is an unaltered original WW2 find I consider this a reference carbine. All help from your side with the markings will be much valued and appreciated. It will be documented with the .30M1 in our museum, together with the name of the people supplying the information (only if you would like that of course). Here we go: Brand: Underwood S/N 2776215 (jan '44 based on the PDFs that new2brass sent me) No markings on barrel visible because of rust Before conserving  The conservator put some WD40 on it because it was locked shut.  one of the 3 original magazines (other ones still with the finders) with KSG marking  S-RB marking on stock  Barrel band type I havent seen before, need your help with this one.  Original finish under handguard still in top condition  Shallow ordnanace marking on stock (not easy to see, but its there in the middle of the picture)  A number 2 marking on the trigger group  C marking on operation rod  Dissassembled but not conserved yet  B/P marking on hammer which seems to be of stainless steel never seen that before, always blued ones  extremely clean inside of stock, just a very little bit of mould. Never seen this before on all carbines I researched (those were probably all Dutch ex. military/police). All those ones are fully black (from gases). This one is not, so for that I conclude that it seems not to have been fired a lot  Q-RMC on inside of handguard  Standard products recoil plate and buttplate |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 10:35am |
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Unfortunately my 30Mb space has been exceeded, so I cannot upload the pictures of the cleaned 30M1 after conserving.
I would gladly like to ask a moderator/supervisor of this forum to allow me some more space for uploading these picures. Also more pictures of carbines in our museum are about to follow. Many thanks so far!
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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W5USMC
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 10:51am |
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Partrick, the stock marking is S-HB (Hillerich & Bradsby Co made for Standard Products), hammer marking is B/R (wartime replacement).
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Wayne
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 11:45am |
I did a batch resize to your pictures which created space. You can now upload more. If possible please try to resize photos to 720 dpi wide. anything bigger he forum software displays at 720 wide, so a larger picture just eats up space. Another issue that is common is when uploading and if a lag the user tends to click upload again. this will start a second upload and it adds a date to the file name one example is beeldbankwo2_2.jpg you clicked 4 times. The date added looks like beeldbankwo2_2018-04-06_11-00-56.jpg You would have to find the post where it is displayed and right click and find the name of the picture actually posted. you can then delete the other 3. This would add a little more space. If in doubt, do nothing. If you accidentally delete the wrong photo you can tell me what post it is in and I will link the other picture
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 12:02pm |
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your barrel band is a type one, most common WW2 band. These were upgraded when possible to the type 3, which has that bayonet lug.
That band of material near the butt does not look like it was left from a magazine pocket. Might have been tape. Your slide might be an early Inland. Look in the box for a PI in circle marking. Winchester also could have markings in that location, so there may be a W. Look at the cam area where the bolt lug goes. Is the top flat or a heart top shape? Trigger housing probably has a .U. mark on the back magazine wall. Look at the magazine catch face, it should be marked. The hammer is not stainless. Hammers have been observed "in the white" meaning no finish. Is there S-S4 on the butt plate? it looks like a QHMC. Is the recoil plate marked? You probably know that the phosphate coating on the carbine is chemically a form of rust, so any rust removal will take any original finish off. What a shame! Nice find |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 1:27pm |
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Thanks for the fast and quick reply! And many thanks for making room for the photo's. I'll post them in a minute or two! Ok, I thought the barrel band was different. At least, it looked that way. About the magazine pocket: I think it really was there, it is difficult for you to see on the photo's, but if you see the carbine in your hands it is an exact fit for the pocket. I didn't see any of the markings on the slide or bolt lug. I'll investigate again to be sure incl. the shape. Also didn't see the U on the trigger housing/back magazine wall. I'll re-check The hammer looked mint.....for some kind of reason it didn't got corrosion. There is no marking on the buttplate. The recoil plate is a standard products marked one. Last months we are helping a collector in the north of the Netherlands that had a fire. I cleaned a few of his carbines incl. a M2. We got the outer thin layer of rust off with soaking in ballistol and very fine steelwool. Just a very mild brush. Also did it with this carbine, just a very mild brush to get the outer layer off. Finish is not damaged. After cleaning many corroded ones I know what to do. Here is our website with some pictures of the cleaning at the guy that had a fire: https://www.nvwht.nl/2021/04/13/actie-help-onze-bertus-uit-de-brand/
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 07 2021 at 1:32pm |
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Thanks that I have more space to upload!!! Here are the pictures of the Underwood .30M1 barn-find after conserving  This evening I'm going to investigate & clean an Inland of my private collection that I got just a few weeks ago. It has a relatively low serial number 373872, my lowest so far.
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis
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Posted: Sep 21 2021 at 9:38am |
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And the .30M1 carbine saga continues, here's the next one: a typical Dutch police .30M1 carbine with the black strap with "knip hier" and the metal cover.
Brand: National Postal Meter s/n 4216578 (jan '44) No markings on barrel. Looks like a brand new one (none AI)  Note the flash hider, a later addition I think   1 hole. Don't see that very often. Probably typical National Postal Meter?  The typical Dutch blackened police strap with "knip hier"  Hammer marking: SW trigger housing marking: N 16 Note the purple-ish color of the finish of the trigger housing  RIA recoil plate   Bolt lug marking I 0 3 |
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Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl |
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patrickduis wrote: