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Late 4.25 million NPM

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Mike in NC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Late 4.25 million NPM
    Posted: May 01 2023 at 11:39am
I picked up a minty looking 4.25 million NPM with undated Marlin barrel back in February. It has a few unusual features, at least compared to Club published data.

It has a low wood stock but there is no sign of it being cut down from highwood configuration. A few original looking very late NPM carbines have been reported to have low wood stocks, but that doesn't seem to be well documented.

It has a type 1 barrel band, but it is a Rock-Ola barrel band marked with the lightly stamped M-R and a narrow sling swivel. It is a legit Rock-Ola band and there is no sign it has ever been off of the barrel after manuufacture. I know War Baby documents the transfer of barrel bands from IBM to NPM with KV-B swivels. I have seen these on other 4.2 million NPM carbines. I haven't previously seen a Rock-Ola barrel band on a NPM or seen documentation of transfer to barrel bands from Rock-Ola to NPM.

FInally, the trigger group doesn't have the typical oddball NPM trigger spring with that extra bend at the very end of the normally straight end of the spring.

Any comments on those small oddities on this late NPM?   
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Bkell3565 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bkell3565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2023 at 3:30pm
I'm no expert, but according to my reading, late NPM's should have a type III stock (low wood, oval cut oiler slot). Is it marked?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2023 at 3:49pm
@ Mike, did NPM produce the serial numbers or blocks in order?
Of those in that serial number range, what dated barrels have been reported?

What number is on the bottom of the receiver on the TH lug? What is the highest number reported?

When was the low wood stock implemented?

Was the "NPM" style spring used throughout production? Who made the springs?

I assume you have the newsletters, See CCNL 373, 125, 126
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Mike in NC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2023 at 4:58pm
The number on the bottom of the receiver is "23" so that is the highest number observed and it is in the last batch of receivers. Some of the dated barrels in this group are 2-44 or even 3-44. Newsletter 126 states that no low wood stocks were observed on original NPM carbines, but that was from 1987 so I can't help but wonder if that is the complete story. Other manufactures were using low wood stocks by that time.   

War Baby shows transfer of 35,000 barrel band assemblies from IBM to NPM, but the observance of IBM barrel band assemblies is not mentioned in the two Carbine Club NPM updates (125, 126) from 1987. Hard for me to imagine someone useing a rarer and more valuable Rock-Ola barrel band assembly for a restoration, but who knows.

Wallace Barnes Co. was the supplier of the trigger springs for NPM and I don't see any lateral transfer of trigger springs coming to NPM from any other manufacturer in War Baby. I didn't see any discussion of trigger spring type in CCNL 125, 126, 0r 373. Maybe there is something that isn't listed in any of the subject indexes to the newsletters.

I do have all the newsletters, maybe I misssed something.

Very nice late NPM carbine, but I may never know if it is all original or not.
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Mike in NC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2023 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by Bkell3565 Bkell3565 wrote:

I'm no expert, but according to my reading, late NPM's should have a type III stock (low wood, oval cut oiler slot). Is it marked?


The stock on this carbine has a very nice NPM legit (to me) cartouche and is marked TRIMBLE over sTN in the sling cut. It is minty wood.   
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2023 at 5:15pm
Wallace Barnes also made trigger springs for Inland and UEF, but they were not like the NPM types.

Was there more than one supplier  of trigger springs to NPM? I will save you time,
War Baby has an evident typo. Spring Trigger [Pin] made by the Torrington Co.

Was it a trigger spring, or trigger housing pin? Don't know, but I find it hard to believe that one company would have made two different spec springs for the same item, though possible. But what if they needed springs and the sub had the other type on hand, would they have sent them.

To be honest I dont remember the story behind the NPM type spring. Maybe someone can quote where it is discussed.

As to the barrel band, Very late the contractors were doing a floor sweep for every part, and reaching out to other contractors of parts vs making them.  How or where a Maid o Mist part wound up on Rochester is any ones guess.

If it looks original, leave it be! One day we may see another.

There is an article  written by Marty Black in the featured section called "Expect the Unexpected" That NPM carbine also had a made for Rock-ola band
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PingCMP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2024 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Mike in NC Mike in NC wrote:

I picked up a minty looking 4.25 million NPM with undated Marlin barrel back in February. It has a few unusual features, at least compared to Club published data.

It has a low wood stock but there is no sign of it being cut down from highwood configuration. A few original looking very late NPM carbines have been reported to have low wood stocks, but that doesn't seem to be well documented.   

Last fall I bought a 4.28 million NPM that came through the door that I might not have if I'd read CCNL's 125/6 beforehand because I'm seeing some of the same discrepancies. I will say though, it looks very nice and original. I just wanted to show you this stock that sure looks like factory low wood to me to see if  it matches yours.


Charlie
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Mike in NC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2024 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by PingCMP PingCMP wrote:

Originally posted by Mike in NC Mike in NC wrote:

I picked up a minty looking 4.25 million NPM with undated Marlin barrel back in February. It has a few unusual features, at least compared to Club published data.

It has a low wood stock but there is no sign of it being cut down from highwood configuration. A few original looking very late NPM carbines have been reported to have low wood stocks, but that doesn't seem to be well documented.   

Last fall I bought a 4.28 million NPM that came through the door that I might not have if I'd read CCNL's 125/6 beforehand because I'm seeing some of the same discrepancies. I will say though, it looks very nice and original. I just wanted to show you this stock that sure looks like factory low wood to me to see if  it matches yours.





Charlie, My low wood stock on my 4.25 million NPM looks exactly like your 4.28 million NPM stock. The low wood cut on my stock has that same curved cut that ends in front of the handguard cut.
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RWS-67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2024 at 2:08pm
Looking at your pictures, you have a pot belly stock there.  Not original to NPM for that time frame.  More pictures of the stock top, front, bottom & both sides full length are needed.
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W5USMC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2024 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by RWS-67 RWS-67 wrote:

Looking at your pictures, you have a pot belly stock there.

Think that is just the angle of the picture. Not a potbelly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2024 at 3:23pm
Mike . . .

   Sorry for the sunlight pix, I'll try to do better if this one qualifies for it's own post here! Because yours is so close and in really good condition, please let me fly these pix past you to see if I've been duped or lucky. Unlike yours, this one has an unmarked type 2 barrel band, which is noticeably darker than the receiver and even the Marlin barrel. I only have 1 other carbine with type 2 so I don't know much about them, and the Carbine Club newsletters are few. TIA

Thanks to any and all for input on this NPM!

Charlie                                                                                                                                                                     





Charlie
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