The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine

Latest eNewsletter Release Available! Check the Newsworthy Items Section


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > Carbines of the Collectors > Displays and Museums
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Karabiner, M1 - Dallas TX

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (7) Thanks(7)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Karabiner, M1 - Dallas TX
    Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 4:02am
Carbines used by the police in the American Occupation Zones in Germany & Austria during and after the Occupation

Dallas Arms Collectors Show August 2011

This display took 1st Place at the Dallas Arms Collector's Show in 2010. The 2011 version had a number of upgrades.

The purpose of the display was to educate folks on a time in American history when we helped rebuild the nation and police forces of a defeated enemy. Arming their police forces with U.S. M1 Carbines that had served with our troops during the war against them.

The initial display was built within a 2 bedroom 3rd floor apt (no elevator) in the Los Angeles area over the period of about 6 months. It was loaded up in an SUV and driven 1,450 miles to Dallas Market Hall where it was on display for 2 days.

On it's return home the upgrade took about 6 months. Then loaded up in an SUV and U-Haul trailer and driven to Dallas again. The costs and risks involved in transportation prevented it's display in OH unfortunately.

Why Dallas? They requested it be built and shown. All the work was worth it when the attendees visited the display.

Four of the carbines on display along with some of the accessories have been donated to the Cody Firearms Museum in Cody, WY.


(To view a larger version click on the image)


























































Here's the 2010 Dallas Display (click on the image)



Back to Top
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 6:42am
This is outstanding...the Holy Grail of occupation Carbines!  Like perusing through a museum.Definitely not something you put together over a couple weekends.  Thank you for sharing.
Back to Top
Charles View Drop Down
Grunt
Grunt
Avatar

Joined: Mar 21 2016
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Points: 461
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 8:15am
Fantastic display, makes your heart pound, thanks.
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA

Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 9:16am
Yep, that is one heck of a display. Beautiful, thanks for posting.
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
carbinecanuck View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Feb 04 2017
Location: Western Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinecanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 9:31am
Incredible display of history there.  Thanks for sharing.
Courage is fear holding on a minute longer. - GEORGE S. PATTON
Back to Top
JEM292 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Mar 09 2016
Location: Northern MN
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEM292 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 10:46am
Thanks for sharing the diplay, what a collection.
Would be something to see it in person.
Back to Top
jackp1028 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: Cloudcroft, NM
Status: Online
Points: 636
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 11:37am
Will there be a 2018 version somewhere? I'd like to see this in person. Great history!
JackP
Back to Top
m1a1fan View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Got Para?

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 3:37pm
Wow! Absolutely fantastic! Would love to see something like this in person.
Back to Top
David Albert View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Status Quo Challenger

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Ohio
Status: Online
Points: 859
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2017 at 10:07am
This is exactly the type of display I love to see. Has it ever been displayed at OGCA? Does the owner live near Dallas? If so, will it be displayed at the NRA Convention next year? I think it would do well in the Gun Collector display competition. Does the owner happen to be a member of DACA?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Eagle Scout, NESA
Back to Top
arthur View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Feb 18 2016
Location: dayton,ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arthur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2017 at 10:54am
I saw this display at Dallas in 2010 and was thoroughly impressed with the depth of content. Barbed wire on fence to support the display pictures of "THE BERLIN WALL"  as a backdrop of the carbine display and "all the trimmings." I also would like to see it come east to OGCA (Ohio Gun Collectors Assn.) to see it again and see how much it has matured over time...Ron
Back to Top
Car Wash Chris View Drop Down
Grunt
Grunt


Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Dayton,Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Car Wash Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2017 at 3:03pm
WOW ! I could spend a whole day looking that over. Outstanding job !!
Back to Top
Ghostman View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: May 31 2016
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2017 at 10:10pm
I was stationed in Fulda, FRG with the 4/11th ACR from June 88-May 90 and saw the fall of the Iron Curtain! Month before East German refugees had been going on Holiday to Czechoslovakia then cross the border into Austria then West Germany. Traubies (Traubant East German Car) were everywhere! That first week in Sep 89 when the East stopped manning the wall was a bit chaotic and East German's were streaming across the border! After a week of being on alert we stood down.
 
Never saw any of the West German guards, police or other law enforcement ever carry a Carbine.
Michael
Retired Army 1987-2008
4th ID Mech, 11th ACR, 25th ID light, 82nd Abn, 101st Abn/AAsslt, 160th SOAR
Helicopter Dr.
VCDL member
NRA Life Member
Weapons & History Enthusiast

Back to Top
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 11 2017 at 6:05am
Interesting firsthand experience of history being made.  In addition to the technical help, its the sharing of information such as this that makes this a great forum.  Thanks for sharing and your service. 
Back to Top
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2017 at 4:01am
To answer a few questions....

Regarding the carbines and when they were used by the Germans.

The police in West Germany that used the carbines were within the American Occupation Zone. It consisted of 5 Districts, each with it's own U.S. Office of Military Government (OMGUS): Bavaria, Hessen, the upper 1/3 of the former states of Baden and Wurttemberg we called Wurttemberg-Baden, the Bremen Enclave and West Berlin. With West Berlin being a very unique situation that didn't get the carbines to the hands of the police until about 1960. Read the web page to find out why.

http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Berlin.html

By the end of the occupation in 1955 each land/state had purchased the carbines provided. Each land/state retired them and sold them at different times with most having been taken out of service by the mid 60's. The remainder by the mid 1970's after the fiasco at the Munich Olympics in 1972. Didn't involve carbines but brought to a head the re-arming of the West German police.

Regarding the display, OGCA and the NRA....

At the request of a couple OCGA members at the Dallas show in 2010 I intended on transporting the display to their annual display show. Two things prevented this from happening. First, the costs involved at a time when I didn't have the extra money to cover it. Second, while I had help driving to/from Dallas in 2010 I did it alone in 2011. I was concerned with the exposure of the display to theft and traffic while traveling alone.

With the exception of 1 carbine shared by a Dallas member, I had acquired everything on my own during a 5 year period of financial challenges.

After the 2010 display Dallas wanted to sponsor the display at the annual NRA meetings. I did a recon of those a few months later which resulted in the upgrade displayed in 2011. At this show the NRA conducted one of their traveling 1 day seminars and did their own judging of the displays. I was ineligible for the Dallas awards given the prior year's win. Wasn't aware NRA was judging the 2011 show and asked to include mine. When their judges showed up at mine I asked and received the answer.

When the NRA awards were announced this display didn't receive any. Took me a few minutes but I realized a message was being delivered. To the Dallas Collectors. If they wanted to win at the NRA annual meetings display show this wasn't the display to show up with. It was going to be their first time. I spoke with the Dallas folks and relieved them of their commitment to sponsor the display.

I was a little disappointed but understood the why. I showed up to the football game with a bunch of soccer balls. The NRA displays and judges have a different focus and interest. Glad Dallas found out ahead of time.

The display has been dismantled with 4 of the carbines and some of the accessories being donated to the Cody Firearms Museum here in the next few weeks. Already been arranged.

To put the display into perspective of my world, all these web pages you see on the 3 websites were done by one person over the past 12 years. Long story for a different topic.

I'm an investigator/researcher, not a collector. My belief is the info turned up by research has limited short term value if it isn't shared. The websites are part of a larger project I'm part of.

The "Bavarians" were a research project. A short term project produced the pages on David Marshall Williams (see the Site Map on USCarbineCal30.com). Current project with Dan is the IR scopes and gear used with the carbines.

If I do another display it will be to educate on the history of something not well known I think warrants the work involved. So in the meantime I started this thread hoping others will share their displays so all the work can be viewed more than once or twice. I'm reaching out for the first ones but need to get back to the project at hand.

Thanks much all. It was a very good learning experience in more than one way. And my apologies to the OCGA and the OGCA members who I told I would bring it. I had hoped too.

Jim
Back to Top
m1a1fan View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Got Para?

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2017 at 9:45am
Thanks jim. We all appreciate the work you and Dan and others do. We also appreciate the hard work of all the members the names of which appear all over the newsletters.

Might have to make a trip to Cody to see what you've cooked up.
Back to Top
SWANEEDMB View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Jul 31 2016
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2017 at 9:55am
Thank you Jim for all you do, for all the info you have helped me with is a big part of my interest in the carbines, maybe a little late on my part but do have a genuine interest, much of it is very confusing, absorbing just a little is a challenge but well worth the time.
Back to Top
RClark9595 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Oct 30 2017
Location: WVC Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 118
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RClark9595 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2017 at 7:14am
It is easy to be in awe of the amount of work putting all that together, it is deserving of a permanent home for Carbine enthusiasts and others to learn and enjoy. What great work Jim you should be proud of what you have done, thank you very much for sharing, hoping to see other peoples collections, these are very educational. Thanks again, your efforts are not in vain.
Ron

USAF 4535 CCTS
F4 Combat Crew Training
Vietnam era Vet.
Back to Top
David Albert View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Status Quo Challenger

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Ohio
Status: Online
Points: 859
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2017 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by sleeplessnashadow sleeplessnashadow wrote:



After the 2010 display Dallas wanted to sponsor the display at the annual NRA meetings. I did a recon of those a few months later which resulted in the upgrade displayed in 2011. At this show the NRA conducted one of their traveling 1 day seminars and did their own judging of the displays. I was ineligible for the Dallas awards given the prior year's win. Wasn't aware NRA was judging the 2011 show and asked to include mine. When their judges showed up at mine I asked and received the answer.

When the NRA awards were announced this display didn't receive any. Took me a few minutes but I realized a message was being delivered. To the Dallas Collectors. If they wanted to win at the NRA annual meetings display show this wasn't the display to show up with. It was going to be their first time. I spoke with the Dallas folks and relieved them of their commitment to sponsor the display.

I was a little disappointed but understood the why. I showed up to the football game with a bunch of soccer balls. The NRA displays and judges have a different focus and interest. Glad Dallas found out ahead of time.

Jim


Jim,

I'd be interested in talking about the NRA experience in more detail, but it may be a moot point now.

Dallas has displayed at NRA on their own in the past, and they displayed as a sponsor of The American Thompson Association in 2007 in St. Louis, so that we could combine resources, and have a 40-foot long display. That was just a few years prior to your display. Dallas also displayed with us in Nashville in 2015.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Eagle Scout, NESA
Back to Top
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2017 at 11:53pm
No hard feelings on my part about the NRA experience. I understood what they do and why.

This discussion has gone farther than I've wanted to go with it. I'd like to end my part in it with this:

I didn't build the display to travel the country showing it everywhere. Nor did I build it for any award. I built it to educate with the specific intent of getting it national exposure at the annual NRA meetings for the same reason, education.

What helped that education take a big leap was CMP receiving the Army returns from Austria. That along with the website accompished what I set out to do. All this was during the same relative time span.

I wanted it to win at the NRA meetings only because the Dallas Colector's wanted it and deserved it. They're a bunch of great guys I was very grateful too. Especially Al Sinz.

The display that would be more in line with what the NRA looks for is the display in Washington State shown on this forum. What it shows is the American history of the carbines.

The display I built shows the history of the carbines after the war in the hands of the new police forces of a former enemy. I've known all along the display would be a good display in Germany.

A big part of the message of my display was easily missed. This was American history. In West Germany.

Most people are understandably more interested in what happened during WWII. How many know or care much of anything about what happened in the first 5 years after that war, other than bits and pieces that happened in Berlin?

The history of Germany after WWII is a very interesting history. To me. I'm a retired police segeant. When I see what us and the Germans were up against the day after the war ended I maybe have a little understanding of just how difficult and important that time in history was. To include preventing a WWIII. People can bitch about it but look where Germany is today. The Germans did it, not us. But with our help. Add to this there was no WWIII against the Germans.

My display was about a small part of that history.

While this was interesting I found another piece of American history that was even more of a surprise. What happened in Japan after WWII ... less than 5 years after that war ended. When North Korea invaded South Korea. I'll give you a hint, these guys aren't Korean... they're the instantly formed "National Police Reserve", at the request of General MacArthur his first week in South Korea. These "cops" filled the positions vacated when our troops in Japan were sent to Korea. Their country became a material staging area but also manufactured items for our troops. Including parts for the .30 cal. carbines and M1 Rifle (Garand).






http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_Howa.html



The U.S. .30 caliber carbines played a part in that history too. What do you think would have heppened to Japan if we'd lost in Korea?

Back on the "Bavarian" display above. It has been dismantled. Parts have gone back to Germany to their police museums. Some is going to the Cody Firearms museum. Some is pictured on the website. The display parts not historical have been recycled. It did it's job. There may be another in the future and if there is it will be focused on a piece of history on which I think people would benefit in knowing and find interesting.

The best place for education exposure is the internet. But there's no 2nd place to the real thing.

I'm hoping others who built displays will add them here. Doesn't matter when they were as they are a part of history people like to see.

Jim

P.S. Look close at how those carbines are displayed. They are "locked" into their mounts and base. The base was audibly and annoyingly alarmed.
Back to Top
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 21 2017 at 6:46am
Jim, I absolutely love your history lessons and can't agree more in preserving the history.  That's what really got me interested in collecting a few meager carbines along with a few other USGI and WWII era firearms and accessories.  Showing "the real thing" as you said to my kids and finally a grandkid when he gets older how all of America came together in support of the war effort e.g. Rock-Ola being my favorite trivia question.  Then there are all the various manufacturers of the carbine pouches and other canvas goods.  It is not something to be erased from our history books. 

My dad joined the Army in fall of 46 and served a short enlistment state-side but what very little he has said regarding actual duties, not the fun stuff, it appears the cold war was heating up.  As you said, those years right after WWII were formidable times and a history not to be taken for granted.  

Thank you again and please keep the history lessons coming.

Merry Christmas 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.095 seconds.