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Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests

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    Posted: Jun 21 2021 at 11:33am

US CARBINE CAL. .30 M1 Back from Italy

 

Reports of the carbines brought in from Italy and sold by Midway USA have started rolling in. Some members and non-members sharing information have many questions and we thought it best to post that information to here for everyone’s benefit.  These are not the first Italian carbines brought back into the USA so we will recap our findings below as well as present some pictures to better help explain things.

In 2007 the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) had received over 33,000 carbines through the US Army. The carbines came in from Italy with the bolts removed and packaged separately.  Many of the carbines were covered in heavy preservative. The CMP reported them all as “mixmasters”

For those of you reading that are not familiar with the term “mixmaster” I will refer you to the rebuild process where the carbines were stripped down and sorted by the component, gauged, and inspected, followed by refinishing. The assembly process would be to assemble parts that passed inspection and refinish that was at the top of the box, regardless of markings, and use to assemble a complete carbine. These carbines tend to be a wide mix of parts and though they may have some correct parts for the manufacturer it is highly unlikely that an original part would wind up back on the original carbine. There was absolutely no attempt to keep the original parts together.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html

 

In 2007-2008 The Club and some of its members went down to help the CMP with the cleaning and sorting.  The Club opinion was that the Italians took good care of these and there were no signs of neglect. However, all of the buttplates showed heavy wear.

The general condition and finish of the carbines varied greatly. Some appeared to have been refurbished by the Italian Military and then stored after seeing little to no use. Others appeared to be older rebuilds performed by either the US or Italian armories, Issued/used and then stored. The refinish could be a medium to dark gray as well as some that look black.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/Italian_Black.jpg

The black refinishing is believed to have been done by the Italians. A very small number of carbines had the original finish on them. Though a few of these original finish carbines looked new, the majority were quite worn. Some carbines were coated in heavy grease prior to storage while others were very dry with some exhibiting light rust.


Note the missing bolt

As reported by the CMP that all these carbines were mixmasters and assembled with no regards to matching proper parts codes. There were no foreign made parts observed, except some stocks and stock parts, as all of parts were of US manufactured wartime or post war replacements. All of the carbines had the upgrades with T3 barrel bands, adjustable rear sights, flip safeties, and late type magazine catches. There were very few late M1/M2 type trigger housings observed.

These carbines came in with the bolts packed in boxes separate from the carbines. Bolts were originally blued from the factory.  Most of these bolts have been parkerized. Some bolts appeared blued, but they may have been re-blued by the Italians.

Sorting of bolts.

The CMP attempted to match a correct manufacturer bolt to the carbine. Headspace was more important than being correct so they may have had any bolt.

The majority of the stocks observed were of the “potbelly’ variety and possibly beech or birch and possibly of European manufacturer. Potbelly stocks has thicker side walls and a noticeably thicker bottom that hangs down starting just forward of the trigger housing. For more info on stock types:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stocks.html

 

Ron Dalhamer reports that may of these stocks had a “tiger stripe” or “flame effect”. Ron shared a picture of a nicely grained stock.

Note the serial number between the oiler cut and the buttplate can be found on some of these returns.

Virtually all of the USGI M1 stocks had some form of rebuild marking on the left side of the stock. Many of these stocks had been upgraded for M2 use. They would remove the bridge inside the stock just forward of the trigger housing and make clearance for a M2 selector switch near the front ring on the left side. All potbelly stocks were manufactured without the bridge and have the selector switch cut.


All of the stocks were low wood, either as made or cut down during a rebuild, Very few had remnants of the original acceptance marks or “crossed cannon" cartouche as the stocks were sanded and probably numerous times over the years.

Most of the European potbelly stocks as well as a number of USGI stocks have the Italian “FAT” inspection cartouche on the right side near the sling well.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/FAT70a.jpg

Fabbrica d’Armi di Turin

The two numbers under the letters represent the year of rebuild

All the barrels were reported as USGI. Some have a sometimes faint ¼ inch wide FAT stamp with a star over FAT and the year below, these are stamped on the top of the barrel at the rear above the chamber.


Since 2008 there have been reports of a buttplate that is not consistent with any known USGI buttplate. We have this listed at the bottom of our buttplate identification page.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/buttplates.html

So far at least one report of this interesting buttplate was reported on these recent carbines from Midway. We started a thread asking people to check their buttplates to see if you have one of these.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/italian-returns-buttplate-check_topic5527.html?FID=54&PR=3

The easiest way to distinguish this buttplate from a USGI is to count the dots in the continuous row just above screw hole which had 14 dots. USGI buttplates that are in the horizontal orientation all have only 12 dots.


Please Share and Report your Findings

Looking at the Midway sales and with good reporting we may be able to establish a time frame when these carbines were shipped overseas. We are asking anyone reporting to take a good look at their carbines and report the following

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock?

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel.

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock?

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/3657/Italian_Serial.jpg

6. Does the stock have the selector cut?

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above?

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished.

9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine.

You can post this information in this thread or send the information to the address on the data sheet. Pictures always welcome. This information can also be sent directly to the address below if you are not a registered member.


Data sheets are always welcome. Please put Midway at the top of the sheet. We use this information for compiling data that could be used for future articles presenting our findings. We do not share your personal information such as specific serial numbers or who has shared that information.

Data sheets as well as some videos on disassembly/assembly can be found here as well

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/carbine-club-data-sheets_topic26.html

We are also getting many inquiries on the makes of carbines in relation to the serial number. Some are confusing the barrel maker with the manufacturer of the carbine. This is mostly due to an adjustable rear sight obscuring the makers markings. Please look over the serial number charts.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html

If you were lucky enough to get one of the odd variations please let us know. Also check out our post on serial numbers to look for and report.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/serial-numbers-to-look-for-and-report_topic1292.html?FID=73&PR=3

 

For those with the newsletters that are interested in the finer details as well as some of the rare carbines that the CMP sold see CCNLs 340-13, 341-13, 346-26







Edited by New2brass - Jun 29 2021 at 7:40pm
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Midway Winchester 11530XX

 1. Remnants of rebuild markings - No rebuild marks

2. Is there a FAT marking on stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight - Q-RMC High Wood

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No

6. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No, it appears to be diagonal, the first full row above the screw has 15 if I’m counting correctly. No markings on butt plate.

7. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Parkerized, No

8. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Data Sheet Submitted 6/17/21




Danny Fowler, NCCS, USN (Retired)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 21 2021 at 8:51pm
Looks like an Inland butt plate to me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2021 at 9:08am
I found it kind of interesting that Midway claimed to have purchased ALL of these rifles from the importer PW Arms in Redmond, WA; however, I recently came across several Gun Broker auctions for M1 Carbines that also had PW import markings from the seller "Veronesi Gunworks". These rifles had a starting bid of $1,200 and a Buy it Now price of $1,400. There were several Winchesters, a couple National Postal Meters (one of which I bought), and numerous Inlands.

It's also intriguing to note the rear sights have been replaced on most of these rifles, yet many of them still exhibit early features you would have expected to have been replaced during arsenaling. Mine has an IP type 2 dogleg hammer, type one barrel band, and push button safety.

It really would be interesting to know the history of these rifles.


Edited by Pro Libertate - Jun 22 2021 at 9:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2021 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Pro Libertate Pro Libertate wrote:

I found it kind of interesting that Midway claimed to have purchased ALL of these rifles from the importer PW Arms in Redmond, WA; however, I recently came across several Gun Broker auctions for M1 Carbines that also had PW import markings from the seller "Veronesi Gunworks". These rifles had a starting bid of $1,200 and a Buy it Now price of $1,400. There were several Winchesters, a National Postal Meter (one of which I bought), and numerous Inlands.

It's also intriguing to note the rear sights have been replaced on most of these rifles, yet many of them still exhibit early features you would have expected to have been replaced during arsenaling. Mine has an IP type 2 dogleg hammer, type one barrel band, and push button safety.

It really would be interesting to know the history of these rifles.

 Without a shred of evidence or proof, I'd bet the rifles were "upgraded" for or by the police. To my way of thinking the adjustable sight would be a great benefit for anyone, but the barrel band/bayonet lug and rotary safety, maybe not that big of a deal. Too, the sights could've been replaced quite easily while replacing the barrel bands and safeties require a bit more work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2021 at 9:50am
You make a good point, 35. I suppose the police wouldn't have much use for a bayonet.
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I picked up two of the Midway carbines, one a Saginaw S.G. and the other a Winchester.  Working on datasheets but, for now …

SAGINAW S.G. 3,496,XXX
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight (Rock-ola high wood)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.  (Winchester)
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Parkerized, worn finish
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Parkerized 

WINCHESTER 1,162,XXX
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight (OI high wood, destroyed in transit - thanks UPS)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Deep blue black, little wear, poss. refinish (?)
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Deep blue black
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Midway National Postal Meter  4091xxx

 

 1. Remnants of rebuild markings - No rebuild marks

2. Is there a FAT marking on stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight Stock

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No

6. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No, 12. No markings on butt plate.

7. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue, No

8. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Dark brown

Inland type 3 rear sight, Inland rotary safety stamped H.I., push button mag release, No M2 stock cutout, Type III stock, Low wood, oval cutout, IO stamped, No other stamp markings on stock, Underwood 9-43 barrel with flaming bomb, Punch proof mark, Barrel is turned and unground, 4 rivet handguard with TN stamp, Type 3 barrel band double stamped SI with bayonet lug, Inland trigger housing, Type III hammer stamped IN, The gas cylinder was machined integral with the barrel, Gas piston not stamped, Winchester Flat Bolt, Milled front site no stamp,
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 WINCHESTER 1,138,XXX 
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight ( Type I with WRA GHD and crossed cannons)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue/black possibly refinished
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Brown/blue

This rifle was from the current batch from Italy but not from MidwayUSA. 
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Midway Underwood   2481XXX  W  "Flaming Bomb"

 

 1. Remnants of rebuild markings - No rebuild marks

2. Is there a FAT marking on stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight Stock

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No

6. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No, 12. No markings on butt plate.

7. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue, No

8. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Dark brown/ Parkerized

(Working on the data sheet)

SteveB
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1. No
2. No FAT, original IO only
3. Straight 
4. No
5. No
6. No
7. No, 12 appears Rock-ola
8. Parkerized 

IBM barrel and receiver 3909619
Rock-ola recoil lug
Overland Stock
Winchester Bolt
Rock-ola butt plate 
Push safety
Ramp sights 
NPM trigger group

Take my advice I don’t use it
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Midway Inland s/n 224614 2-43

1. No rebuild marks
2. No FAT on stock
3. Straight stock high wood
4. No FAT on barrel
5. No S/N on stock
6. Butt plate is 12 row
7. Bolt is blue, not refinished
8. Finish is blued/black

Inland barrel, front sight and receiver 
Rear sight Saginaw type 2
Slide Winchester 
Sear inland
Recoil plate Saginaw
Trigger housing standard products
Bolt Quality Hardware 
Mag catch NPM
push button safety 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UtahDean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2021 at 7:12pm
I just sent the data sheet on my Midway M1.  It has an IBM barrel and receiver.  Midway rated it as very good to fine.  It shoots pretty and I'm really enjoying it.

1.  Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? No
2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? Yes
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Black, I can't tell if it is refinished.a
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine.
Dean Compher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edinalaska Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2021 at 10:24pm

Midway USA M-1 Carbine, purchased June 2021.

Quality Hardware, Underwood barrel, listed as Very Good to Fine, S/N 4828xxx

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? NO

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? NO

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? STRAIGHT / LOW CUT

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. NO

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? NO, but “RMC” barely visible on left side in sling area.

6. Does the stock have the selector cut? NO

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? NO, 12. Also marked “J-S3”?

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. BLUED, NO

9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine. PARKERIZED. Wil send sheet later




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Midway Italian Return from PW Arms 2021
Underwood 4,043,XXX.

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants. No

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight WRA

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel.  No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock?  No

6. Does the stock have the selector cut?  No

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above?  No. 12

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished.  Blued, Maybe refinished, but if so shows more wear than the matte black finish on the barrel, receiver, etc.

9. What color is the metal finish of the carbine.   Mostly matte black.


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Just for the fun of it, 2 pics of M1 in Italy in 1978




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Can you tell us more about the photos?
Also if any sort of identification of the units?
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These pics are of a trafic control in Rome by the Carabinieri (Military Police) in 1978. Sorry no more info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2021 at 1:36pm
Hello  
Been awhile since I've posted anything here but just picked up a couple carbines.

Thought I'd pick the Collectors brains here to see what I might have!

I have read the great Italian Carbine Thread with photos and printed a copy for my files.
I just picked up a couple of M1 Carbines one of which is an Italian reimport the wood and finish look identical to the first photo in this thread.

Inland #732603 with an SG (Saginaw) stamped on the left of the receiver. 
Bbl is an Inland   General Motors Date of 5-43 Muzzle Wear <1.5
Hand guard is early 2 rivet Inland and very loose at the nose end, Stock only has an FAT 65 rebuild stamp on it and a small "G" stamped in the front of the pistol grip. Not sure what the finish on the wood is.
The Type 3 barrel band is so tight you can hardly slide it forward to release the handguard.

Wrapped around the bottom of the Triggerguard is what looks like an official white ID tape with blue lettering:

CMP Games, Creedmore Cup Match.

Round bolt, all finish matches and seems like a smooth light gray, all lettering sharp. The only part which has a different deeper dark color is the Type III rear sight and it has bright whitening in the windage lines.
This is a very nice-looking carbine I have an Italian Sling on the way, reason I went after this one was to me it is a Saginaw variant; I have a Saginaw S'G' - Irwin Petersen ($50 in 1971!), and a Saginaw S.G., which I just picked up also, it came with an odd bayonet which turns out to be the Italian bayonet for Italian M1 Carbines it's in mint condition. The Saginaw S.G. is a rebuild with 2 proof P's and faint rebuild stamp I'm still trying to figure out. The wood on it is all SG marked.

Will have to print and remember how to do a Data sheet when I have time.

Oh yes NO IMPORT markings, I won't buy a USGI firearm with Import markings.

I'm guessing I'll be sending off to CMP for provenance letters soon.

I'm curious if the Saginaw S.G. is from DCM/CMP also. 

The last Inland I lucked into a couple years back for $650 had sold on the CMP Auction in 2008 for $850. I recognized the CMP hang tag on it (sent the request letter to CMP) IDing some unusual parts so I jumped on it and got lucky!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 9:30am
Over in the the CMP forum, there is a post stating Inland M1 Carbine S/N: 7429 is a Midway Italian return.  
Such a low number!  What are the odds such an early production carbine stayed stateside in say August or September '42? 
It would be interesting to find the latest production carbine amoungst this batch of returns (the Midway ones without FAT rebuild stamps).
I'm sure you can see what I'm speculating about here.
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