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IP stock marking mystery

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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2018 at 10:48pm
Hard to say if it is refinished without seeing more pictures of it.

Is the bolt marked? Does it have what appears to be a punch mark on it?
Is the handguard marked?

Rear sight marks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2018 at 10:57pm
Pretty common that most Recoil plates don't match the color of the receivers.
Usually the finish is applied by the parts maker..... 
And the difference in the metals hardness/final milling tend to take the finish different, thus the no matching color.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2018 at 11:05pm
Maybe i'm just seeing things now lol.

What about the rolled receiver markings, did some not get stamped in properly?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2018 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by m1a1fan m1a1fan wrote:

Hard to say if it is refinished without seeing more pictures of it.

Is the bolt marked? Does it have what appears to be a punch mark on it?
Is the handguard marked?

Rear sight marks?

Only took the stock off where is bolt stamp?
Handguard marked IR-IP and matches lower stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2018 at 11:38pm
More pics I took.  Not the best, quick with daylight no flash.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 12:11am
The roll marks on carbines at ends sometimes were light, sometimes very deep.
You need to remove slide to see bolt markings. If you take slide off the you can take bolt out. Take pic of rear so we can see what type of firing pin.
Sometimes parts missed being marked, however an IP/SG' trigger is easy to figure with a few good pics.

You said this was from a museum? Any details?

Our northern brothers do find some nice carbines!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 12:19am
I think at Gunboards or somewhere I mentioned Ont Canada, but the seller is from Vancouver area.  I will check emails and see if it's mentioned.

I have 1 week inspection period providing I don't do any damage to pins or screw heads so don't want to strip it down.

Ok found an email, all he said was a local Military Museum and he's in Vancouver area.  They had it last 20 years or so on display and then storage, so no pics on the net I would think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 7:29am
Think I see the punch mark on the bolt.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html

Being it is in Canada, any Canadian markings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 12:46pm
No Canadian markings.  YEs bolt stamp

Thanks for all help on this, but just wondering if you see any problems?  Should it have I cut stock because of low ser #? 

 I can do more pics if needed.

THis much is confirmed.  

Stock is high wood and both are original IR-IP.  Markings look original.

Metals are a mix of IP and SG because of the switch to SG in 43.

Could this be a early low ser# that missed the war, stayed stateside and somehow made it to Canada?  Sounds weird but strange true data is uncovered all the time with war items.

I can strip it down unless it can be done with no damage or marks on the park finish as it's on a 7 day inspection period.  

Wayne


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 1:18pm
pics



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 2:05pm
It came out very easy no tools needed.  

Everything in heavy gun grease.

Slide is IP
Trigger housing IP
Hammer SG
Bolt is SG not corrosion but gun grease on SG stamp.  

This is as far as I'm going on strip down.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 3:00pm
Even though it is an early serial number it does not make it an early gun.
The short version-
No IPs were accepted by the government. Their contract was pulled and given to Saginaw.

The built carbines were stripped down and with the parts on hand were checked to see what can be put together and shipped out the door. Parts that failed may have been reworked.
 IP produced the 3 mill block simultaneously, so what is early
Generally we use barrel dates in the case of IP.
 The trend was early dates had more IP parts and later had more S'G' parts.

It is possible that the receiver needed some work and this delayed to the point of why there is a oval cut stock. DO not obsess with what it should have, In your case it is probably correct
I do not think there are enough carbines in Canada nor are the prices as high that there is the parts swapping and fake parts as here in the USA. Will let you comment to that.

I have to check but believe that a S'G' dogleg is not very common. 
I would expect the trigger , FP, safety, mag catch and small parts to be blued, but cannot make it out from pictures.

IP receivers usually have hardness marks as well as letters or numbers at right rear of receiver. What marks and how many punch marks.

Bottom front of receiver in front of TH mount there is usually a stamp. Please share what you see.

I am not well versed enough to say how carbines wound up in Canada other than lend lease program which we only know of 235 of them and maybe M2s

I know the British proof marked firearms and Canada is on a list I saw of proof marks, However a Canadian gunsmith and club member here had told me he has not seen any proofs on a carbine.
It may be a time frame where this had stopped? Would love to know why and when.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 7:02pm
If OK ?
I'd like to add this link about IP's and markings/barrel dates found on them that Newscotlander had inquired about some years ago.
I see 1,77 IP's with 1 and 2 of 43 dated barrels (see link below)

It will give good insight to markings found on IP carbines.
It's a 5 page thread with plenty of good pictures and questions/theories about IP/S'G'/SG use and supply of receivers.
I believe it will be of great help to the OP and others with questions after the take over of IP:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 8:22pm
I am pretty confident by now this is an unmessed with very limited use all original early or mid run with mostly IP parts and some SG parts.  Nothing is shockingly wrong with it.  So with that I told the seller it's a done deal and I now own it.  When I get time I will clean the storage or factory grease off it and find more markings and strip it down further.  

This gun has missed the US combat wars and made it up to Canada, how don't know.  

Thanks for all help, you fellas helped me more here then anywhere and you take the M1 carbine history and collecting very seriously.

As far as parts being blued, you mean same color as the mag? Very few M1 carbines up here, so fakery is limited but who knows with one click of the mouse something from anywhere in the world is on the doorstep.

Buy the gun not the story true, but this makes sense somehow.  The seller is not a WW2 collector and he bought them years ago as an investment when the museum was clearing out storage items.  So on top of the years he has it plus the museum makes this around 25 years this has not been seen in the collector world.  I have the name of the museum but won't name it openly on the forum.  I don't want them contacted and bothered with requests to confirm any info etc.

IF a member here has access to a data base of serial #'s that might help track the history I can provide it in a PM.

Wayne 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Even though it is an early serial number it does not make it an early gun.
The short version-
No IPs were accepted by the government. Their contract was pulled and given to Saginaw.

The built carbines were stripped down and with the parts on hand were checked to see what can be put together and shipped out the door. Parts that failed may have been reworked.
 IP produced the 3 mill block simultaneously, so what is early
Generally we use barrel dates in the case of IP.
 The trend was early dates had more IP parts and later had more S'G' parts.

It is possible that the receiver needed some work and this delayed to the point of why there is a oval cut stock. DO not obsess with what it should have, In your case it is probably correct
I do not think there are enough carbines in Canada nor are the prices as high that there is the parts swapping and fake parts as here in the USA. Will let you comment to that.

I have to check but believe that a S'G' dogleg is not very common. 
I would expect the trigger , FP, safety, mag catch and small parts to be blued, but cannot make it out from pictures.

IP receivers usually have hardness marks as well as letters or numbers at right rear of receiver. What marks and how many punch marks.

Bottom front of receiver in front of TH mount there is usually a stamp. Please share what you see.

I am not well versed enough to say how carbines wound up in Canada other than lend lease program which we only know of 235 of them and maybe M2s

I know the British proof marked firearms and Canada is on a list I saw of proof marks, However a Canadian gunsmith and club member here had told me he has not seen any proofs on a carbine.
It may be a time frame where this had stopped? Would love to know why and when.



Funny you told me just take the slide off and confirm slide and bolt parts and that would mostly determine if original.  Now I need to strip off all the grease and check for dozens of little stamps, marks, pings etc??  

Nothing is wrong with this so far do I really need to go further?  

ORiginal IP/SG stock and markings.
Original IP/SG stamped metals.
Proper Underwood 2/43 barrel.
Not refinished.
No fake parts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 8:46pm
Sounds like you have gone far enough. There's really not a ton of things to look for on these little rifles. Nice rifle, I know I'll never have one and that actually doesn't bother me at all since I enjoy looking at other collector's carbines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 9:01pm
From what I've seen, all the tell tale signs on IP are there. Congrats on the purchase. While it iis odd that such an early serial number has a later barrel and an oval cut stock, it seems to be an anomaly and not a flaw.

Just me, but I would keep the grease on it.

Looks like a potential caniddate. Why not fill out a datasheet on it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 9:08pm
I was merely pointing out what i would expect as original finish from factory. Further that the grease or lighting of pictures makes it that i cannot tell what the finish is of those parts.

Yes, to looking more like the magazine then rest of carbine, but could be a dull or shiney black.

As to the receiver marks, the IP guys love to compare the marks.
Mine has M2 on rear right and the "beerbelly" man on bottom, which I think is really a man playing a drum.

It's more for you to know the niche of your carbine, however I second the motion for a data sheet. This helps the club research especially if an original as well as helping record for your records what the carbine has.

I mentioned possible multiple punch marks near M2 as a correlation to receiver being reworked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 9:30pm
Thanks I understand, the safety and the mag release are more shiney and different color shade.  Trigger looks same as parked.  The finish on the metals is not a real black black when compared to the Inland I have.  Just very slightly greenish black tint.  The slide and hammer is more black.

I will clean off more grease to find markings, doubt I will fire it though.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2018 at 9:32pm
New2brass...that is so true. Nice IP’s don’t come around often and when they do IP fans like myself and others do turn up. Nothing like the matte black finish on an IP receiver. Dulite, correct?
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