Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
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W5USMC ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2861 |
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Square mill cut 1/4" at 72081 not rounded.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Wayne,
I thought I had read somewhere that Newscotlander mentioned something about the prototypes or 11-99 had the 1/4" Mill cut. Aberdeen or Springfield... Odd or Even number, I don't remember. But I try really hard to remember 'Anything' he mentions. Wish he had been my English teacher ![]() I'd enjoy this mystery more if it wasn't for knowing Dan is getting his jollies out of it ! Ch-P777 |
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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New2brass ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4495 |
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Charlie, no jollies. This should ease your mind for the weekend As pointed out in the serial number pages 1-5 were Inlands Tool Room models, these were not made on production machines. 6-10 were Winchesters Tool Room models, these were not made on production machines. 11-30 were Inlands Engineering Models made from the engineering drawings. 31-99 were Experimental assigned numbers. This was the predecessor to the X series carbines. Some examples can be found in the War Baby series and the Club Newsletters. Examples would be the carbines that had 2 recoil springs or the pilot T4/M2 carbines. So the first question is what makes this Inland 92 stand out as an experimental? Well, nothing. However, with anything that was experimental it may have been used in several experiments and firing tests. I would not be surprised if a true experimental was refinished, had a mix of parts, or had some damage. But with close scrutiny things can be found either consistent or inconsistent. Remember, Never say never, Never say always! It seems like all the pieces to the puzzle have been spelled out in the posts! Let’s start with some observations: Barrel is not consistent with timeline; it is a reproduction. Rear sight was called out as a fake. Buttplate is a reproduction. I may have missed someone pointing it out, but the stock and mag catch are also suspect. All of these parts were probably from the Orilla del Río, which is where they all belong in. The receiver was also confirmed coming from the same place. As pointed out there is work on the dovetails. The receiver I believe to be USGI. There are inconsistencies with the serial number. Instead of focusing on the serial number I focused on what the receiver is and where it belongs. As Charlie pointed out the length of the slide channel is not consistent with early Inlands. As Wayne pointed out early Inlands were reported with two periods between the CAL. .30 and this one is missing the period before 30 All of the answers can be found in CCNL 346 in Chris Albrights Inland First Block Update. In this article Chris introduces Inland receiver “configurations” which is not to be confused with what we call receiver types (Spring tube vs drilled receiver) Only two receiver configurations had the one notch. Config 1 rec 17- 30,858 Config 2 rec 29,815- 54,050 Config 3 rec introduced the second slide notch and the earliest number reported is 51,613. Page 5 of the article talks about the front ring. Based on reported information the second period seems to have dropped between the serial numbers 8,590 and 18,330. We need more reporting in this area! The first observation of the period reappearing was at serial number 107,997 and was reported intermittently to serial number 205,355. Page 4 of the article discusses the serial number size. In comparing the fonts on 92 they are a match to other early Inland serial numbers. I do not think the front ring and 92 were buffed off and restamped! Getting back to the slide notch, known engineering and numbered experimental Inland carbines all had the short distance from the slide notch to the rear of the receiver. The slide notch was shortened, which made the distance longer to the rear, somewhere I believe in the 4-digit range. Inland 105 has the short distance. It is highly unlikely in such a short spread (11-105) that there was a different length. I will save some brain cells and say the receiver is consistent with a receiver made between the 8,590 and 18,330 range and as high as 54,050. But I will narrow this down better, Remember I said I believe that the numbers 9 and 2 are legitimate. However, props go out to JonD for catching the work of both sides of the receiver next to the numbers. If the receiver was a 3 or 5 digit carbine the numbers would not be centered. The receiver configuration is not consistent with a config one or two. This would mean that the receiver is a humped four digit. Presenting Inland X92X! And this could be narrowed down to a possible 20 serial numbers in the 8920 – 9929 range Props and thanks to all who played. Edited by New2brass - May 01 2021 at 1:38pm |
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Addendum: Chris Albright reports that it has been observed that the distance from mill cut, on right side of receiver, to rear of receiver is about 1/4 inch instead of 3/4 inch found on most production Inland carbines.
This must have been where I read about the early 1/4" Detail: More later.. Ch-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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W5USMC ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2861 |
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@Dan "As Jack pointed out early Inlands were reported with two periods between the CAL. .30 and this one is missing the period before 30"
Hey, that was me not Jack, give me some credit here.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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jackp1028 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Online Points: 1243 |
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@Wayne "...did drive some of us crazy!"
For me, it was a short putt. ![]() |
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JackP
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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JD and I would have had this figured out by Sunday evening
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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New2brass ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4495 |
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My apologies, now corrected. My notes on this are a pile of envelopes and my chicken scratch only deciphered by me on a good day. I had Jack for buttplate and barrel. To which I will add, No, BLC did not produce barrels that early
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Jond41403 ![]() On Point ![]() Joined: Feb 21 2021 Location: East Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 214 |
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I think that's a great idea Dan, this has been extremely fun for me and I have learned more about receiver differences in the last 3 or 4 days then I possibly would have any other way.
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Dan... "So you are saying I should throw another curve ball this weekend?"
I'm thinking your throwing Spit balls. You sure that 92 is left over from a real Inland Serial number. Seems if the 1st and last digit were removed, We'd see some type of Crown where the current 92 is placed. That style 9 sure looks a lot like the 9 on a Inland MFG Commercial stamp. I couldn't find a Commercial Inland with a 2 to compare. ![]() ![]() As you know Pic comparison above from MR.
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Shape of 2 on #23 is different that the 2 on #92.
The 3 matches the 3 on 993 above. Pic pulled from: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/inlands-first-production-carbines_topic1276.html ![]() |
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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New2brass ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4495 |
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That style 9 sure looks a lot like the 9 on a Inland MFG
Commercial stamp. I couldn't find a Commercial Inland with a 2 to compare.
Charlie, I am suggesting the first and last digit were welded up, ground down and refinished which is evident. This is just like the repaired dovetails. Compare the texture to the rest of the receiver. Notice above inland has the typical machining. From there moving back the machining texture does not match the rest of the receiver. I am not sure if you are making the case for this being a commercial receiver? As to the 9 looking a lot like the 9 on Inland MFG, are suggesting that a commercial company humped the receiver of the one in question or that the humper got access to the dies? But I will entertain this. The serial number on the commercial is smaller than the early Inland serial numbers. The location is different, then there is dealing with the letter fonts in INLAND. The rear bevel would have had to been reshaped. The same goes for the slide detent shape. Front ring would have to welded up or ground down. Then the task of getting the front ring markings and rear receiver marking so close but making the mistake on the period. Then the cast texture would have been altered to make it look like it was machined, but for some reason not getting the texture correct in the serial area. I think Occam’s Razor theory applies here. Do not forget that Inland serial numbers 11-30 were
engineering models. In the link you cite it mentions that the Inland and serial
number were hand stamped.The hand stamped fonts I have observed can be different than the roll dies. Also keep in mind that depth of the stamp will affect the appearance
of the font. the deeper the fatter the stamp looks. Here is an early Inland with a consecutive 9 and 2. notice the machining textures of the receivers. Discussion? |
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painter777 ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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No,
Wasn't considering this as a Commercial receiver. Thought was a Commercial number stamp may have been used on the early Inland GI receiver. I missed your thinking that the 1st and last numbers were weld ups. I was thinking if they had been ground off... We'd see a crown where the 92 is stamped. After blowing up the pics you sent, You can see the lack of or better said continual milling lines. Dan, I tip my hat to you for your over and above effort. And if you find out, Not being mad at JD, Marcus and I having some fun 'Poking the Bear' ![]() Ch-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Smokpole ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 991 |
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Did anyone else take note of the misalignment of the bottoms of the letters L and A? They are in perfect alignment on authentic Inlands, but not on the subject firearm....
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OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
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Donnie ![]() On Point ![]() ![]() Joined: May 31 2018 Location: Newburgh, IN Status: Offline Points: 335 |
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Sherlock Holmes would be impressed with the sleuthing and deductions in this thread.
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Why Carbines? ![]() Hard Corps ![]() ![]() Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 873 |
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Yeah, no wonder he was an addict. ![]() |
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HammerGrunt ![]() On Point ![]() ![]() Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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Did I miss the discussion re the fake stock as well? Looks like Fake Sling Well cartouches to me and that it was an Oval Cut slot that was converted by Bubba's Word Working to look like an I-Cut stock :-)
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Pro Libertate ![]() On Point ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 19 2021 Location: Hayden, ID Status: Offline Points: 348 |
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You beat me to it, Hammer! I was just going to mention how I felt those cartouches look far too clean and even fresh to be legit. You'd expect a certain amount of grime to darken the wood beneath, but those are all "in the white".
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Eric
NRA Life Member NRA-Certified RSO Project Appleseed “Rifleman” When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!" |
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Pro Libertate ![]() On Point ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 19 2021 Location: Hayden, ID Status: Offline Points: 348 |
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I also couldn't help but notice the circular striations to the rear of the sling well... orbital sander, perhaps?
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Eric
NRA Life Member NRA-Certified RSO Project Appleseed “Rifleman” When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!" |
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