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Input on my new Inland purchase?

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BillySteph View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Input on my new Inland purchase?
    Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 4:23pm
I have a 3 day inspection on this. Will not get till Monday. I do not see the SI on the receiver left side below the wood line. But I am not concerned about that. Not like it’s a humped receiver. But the stock, I have questions about. The 4 rivet hand guard is marked LW. And if you look at the other pictures you will see the IO or OI in the sling well and the Underwood rebuild stamp. The crossed Cannons on the other side. It’s in like new shape, does the stock condition along with stampings all make sense to you guys? I guess I have just become too skeptical these days with Carbines and Lugers. Thanks for taking a look Billy.   https://www.gunbroker.com/item/896561687
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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 6:55pm
Pretty typical of a NRA 60's sale.
Rebuilt post WWII by Underwood with a mix of WWII Era and post War parts.
WRA trigger housing and hammer.... etc.. etc.
Barrel and receiver have been refinished.
Bolt is post War with the gas escape hole on the bottom.
The CC appears to have been... I'll say 'Played with'.

IMO that's a lot to pay, but it's a nice looking example.

2 Weekends ago a Inland 420,000 sold for well below that. It appeared to be in Original condition with just the stock being replaced with a nicer one.
Though that Seller is known to be 'Grumpy'.... Wink

Hang on, Others will chime in soon.

Good Luck,
Ch-P777
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BillySteph View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 7:27pm
That’s my concern, if most think the CC’s or anything for that matter has been played with then I will utilize his three day return policy. I am ok with the price, for the most part I knew it was relatively expensive but not enough for me to be that concerned about. But I happened to notice some of his other pieces that have nice stocks and just so happen to always have with various depths that interesting Crossed Cannons. 
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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 9:03pm
Billy,
I don't want to stray interest from your inquiry about your purchase,
But just looked at your Sellers Current GB QHMC offering.
You know the one he's claiming is 100% Authentic.
While wandering thru his couple hundred pictures and seeing a few things not quite right.
I looked over picture # 116 which clearly shows the Italian FAT Barrel stamp on it.
It's at the rear of the barrel just forward of the receiver hand guard lip.
Means at one time at least that barrel was worked on or looked over by the Italians.
More than likely came thru the CMP when they had the Italian returns available.

Here's a picture for another example. Stamped FAT with the Date inside a logo.
We've found these oriented a few directions.

Italian FAT Barrel Stamp:



Now Back to your Inland Purchase,
Your CC was probably sanded over during rebuild. Distorting the shape, but to me it appears it may have been traced over. An attempt to enhance it maybe ?

Ch-P777



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BillySteph View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 10:27pm
     I know people are looking at the price I paid and thinking “dang, that’s a little steep”.   I love the fact the paper work down to the missed delivery post card. I just find that stuff very cool!   I just want to make sure the stamps or cartouches do not seem out of the norm.  
     I just do not understand why someone would mess with the CC with all the other stuff with it. Maybe it was the original owners son thinking he would do dad a favor, lol.   I still have to decide if it’s something I can live with for that price. If anyone sees anything else, just raise your concerns and I will fixate on that too, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 10:29pm
Hard to tell on that CC, though I'm viewing from a small screen phone. If stamped deeper and sanded over, it may leave lines like that. Couple places on the right are the ones I looked twice at.
It all depends what you're looking for. To me that's a lot of chips for a mixmaster rebuild that's not in "white bag" condition, but it looks to be in good service grade condition.

Add: the paperwork is neat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2021 at 11:16pm
In one of the CC pictures it looks like the Stamp bounced. We see this often. Then when the Arsenals rebuilt these carbine the stocks were sanded and re-oiled.
With the rebounded stamp and sanding it can make the CC stamp look that much more distorted.

Paperwork,
We've all seen just the CMP paperwork add up to $250~ to final sale prices and these are much more recent purchases.

Description,
Seller gets pretty wordy, but I don't read anything mis-leading on this one.

His QHMC, pictures tell a different story than his description.

Prices,
Are for the buyer to determine. We are now seeing Commercial carbines sometimes fetching over $1000+.

20 years ago I'd of laughed at paying over $400+ for a Flip Sight. I'm not laughing as I look at one on the desk next to me purchased about a month ago Cry
Sometimes you just get tired of looking and one comes up and you say the Hell with it !

Think anyone ever thought they'd be looking at Carbine ammo for near $1.00 a round ?

Add possible new gun laws by EO tomorrow... Prices could really go nuts.

Good Luck..... Hope We've all Cheered you up..  And Welcome to the Forum Confused

Charlie-P777
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 6:06am
     So, basically no one see’s any red flags here? Painter777’s thoughts on the CC makes enough sense. Other than the price I guess everyone considers this one a good to go?  And as far as being a mix master, it was rearsenaled, so I would expect that.  

     The sellers suggestion that it did not see Korea is probably correct in my opinion, it was rebuilt at Underwood and stored until sold through NRA/DCM. I have not seen that many Carbine with the Underwood rebuild stamp. Is there any information on an estimate on how many they rearsenaled? Thanks everyone, I think I feel better about it, lol. I talked to the seller last night and told him my concerns and he was willing to for go shipping it instead of sending it and me sending it right back. I still have not paid as he is in Disney World with his kids. That gave me some time before paying. Thanks everyone for their input. Billy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 7:21am
This particular seller frequents regional shows so I have actually seen some of his carbines in person. He's one of those guys that will tell you everything about what he's trying to sell whether you want to hear his spiel or not. I know the first time I asked him about the pricing on the Quality Hardware I about fainted. Anywho, buyer beware as always...it's getting rocky out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 8:08am
Here's some club info on the Underwood rebuild program: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/underwood-rebuild-program-1951_topic3928.html

I've seen quite a few with the .U. rebuild stamp on the stock over the years. I've got an Inland that was hit 2 or 3 times with the stamp on both sides of the stock, IIRC. I would say it is fairly common, along with the Standard products rebuild stamp. No rare parts that I can see.
From the auction pictures I don't see anything wrong with it or that jumps out as problematic. Shoot and enjoy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 10:57am
Yea, I have spoken to him a couple of times. He has a think Polish accent. He definitely builds up what he is selling you. I didn’t feel like I was being fed a line of bull he was just basically going over everything in his write up. I guess he just wants to be thorough.   






Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

This particular seller frequents regional shows so I have actually seen some of his carbines in person. He's one of those guys that will tell you everything about what he's trying to sell whether you want to hear his spiel or not. I know the first time I asked him about the pricing on the Quality Hardware I about fainted. Anywho, buyer beware as always...it's getting rocky out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 11:29am
Originally posted by BillySteph BillySteph wrote:

    
 The sellers suggestion that it did not see Korea is probably correct in my opinion, it was rebuilt at Underwood and stored until sold through NRA/DCM.


The whole point of the Underwood and Standard Products rebuild programs was due to of Korea.
Maybe it went, maybe it did not.

That serial number should be a SI marked receiver. Only about 10k marked that way.
SI being made by Saginaw Steering Gear for Inland.
Saginaw then received a contract to make complete carbines and then they marked the receivers SG so the receivers could be used by Inland or their own production.

Picture 111 is not that great and the receiver has been refinished possibly hiding the SI marking.

I am not suggesting this is a red flag, but if absent the SI it would be interesting to examine the front ring markings and Inland Div. markings to see if Inland or Saginaw made receiver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 2:27pm
I asked the seller if he was absolutely sure he could not see the SI that was supposed to be there. He is still in Florida with Kids and will not be back till Friday. I know you said you were not implying that it is a red flag but the lack of it in the pictures was already bothersome to me. So now I am on the fence again, lol.
I know it would be really hard to have all the DCM paperwork and something be questionable about the receiver. I just really wanted to see what’s suppose to be there.




Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Originally posted by BillySteph BillySteph wrote:

    
 The sellers suggestion that it did not see Korea is probably correct in my opinion, it was rebuilt at Underwood and stored until sold through NRA/DCM.


The whole point of the Underwood and Standard Products rebuild programs was due to of Korea.
Maybe it went, maybe it did not.

That serial number should be a SI marked receiver. Only about 10k marked that way.
SI being made by Saginaw Steering Gear for Inland.
Saginaw then received a contract to make complete carbines and then they marked the receivers SG so the receivers could be used by Inland or their own production.

Picture 111 is not that great and the receiver has been refinished possibly hiding the SI marking.

I am not suggesting this is a red flag, but if absent the SI it would be interesting to examine the front ring markings and Inland Div. markings to see if Inland or Saginaw made receiver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillySteph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 2:42pm
Well the post WW2 bolt seems a lot cooler to me now.



     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by BillySteph BillySteph wrote:

I asked the seller if he was absolutely sure he could not see the SI that was supposed to be there. He is still in Florida with Kids and will not be back till Friday. I know you said you were not implying that it is a red flag but the lack of it in the pictures was already bothersome to me. So now I am on the fence again, lol.
I know it would be really hard to have all the DCM paperwork and something be questionable about the receiver. I just really wanted to see what’s suppose to be there.


It is interesting, to me at least, that a receiver may have been made by Inland in the range that was assigned to Saginaw.
Things happened in the rush to get the carbines to the battle front. There are those that collect such odd balls.

Here is the hard part,
the receiver marking "INLAND DIV." was used by both Inland and SG
The receiver marking "INLAND DIV" (no period) was only reported on Saginaw made receivers.

early in the Inland made range the front ring has "CAL.     30  Ml"
in the Saginaw made range we have seen markings similar to those done at Inland as well as some with flat top 3s such as "CAL. 30 Ml" or "CAL.   30 Ml"
Note the variation of the spacing on all those in quotes
The M us another item to look at a some had the middle drop of the M shorter or longer.


Another thing to check would be the trigger housing lug, If it is a type one lug it could be Inland or Saginaw, if a type 3 lug combined with the round mill cut for the slide then I would think it a Saginaw made receiver.


If you bought it because of the paperwork  then I do not see an issue, If you bought it because you wanted an SI coded receiver then I can see the hesitation.

Maybe someone has one close in serial that can confirm the markings, Maybe they just missed the SI marking

I am seeing no evidence of a changed serial number if that is what you are concerned about.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2021 at 5:46pm
The Carbine Club Newsletter for Inlands first serial number block is #346.
It tells about the different style / size markings on the Saginaw made for Inland receivers.
3 different size markings on the lower left front side of the receiver.
SG was stamped in 2 different heights.... 3/16" and 1/8".
The SI stamped is shown but I don't see a height listed.
The SI pictured example appears shorter than the SG 1/8" example, but may just be that picture.
If lightly struck I could see where it could be lost from grit blasting.

@ Billy,
You might want to consider buying a copy of CCNL #346. There are other 'Tells' listed that can help you determine if this receiver was made by Saginaw...... Which is what Dan was getting at in the post above.
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