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Information on M1 Carbine magazines |
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Posted: Sep 21 2017 at 12:07pm |
Specifically on the markings and subcontractors that manufactured them for the Carbine builders. With a small collection I have already encountered two or three I cannot find on any of the lists I have found (primarily on-line). I am interested in printed lists as well as on-line links. I will be ordering the back issues of newsletters I can determine had mag articles. Thanks kindly for any leads!
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usmcdoc67
On Point Joined: Jul 01 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 168 |
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Page 756 in Larson's book. Pages 1297-1303 War Baby 3.
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Glenn
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Thanks Doc, the reviews on war baby 3 that were so bad, I quit with the Home Coming book. Off to Amazon to look for Larson.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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He Dog, Welcome to the forum. I strongly suggest you do a little more research on Larson than you did on the magazines. I will start you off here
you will notice there are club reviews next to some of the books. Here is more help, I direct link to the Larson book review. Now I do know the book has lots of nice pictures, but what you do not know about those pictures will do more harm than good. Larson's book was self published with picture of know reproduction parts and not represented as such. Larson also sells these reproduction parts. One could only assume his motivation was not to provide an informational book, rather sell an advertisement for his merchandise as well as legitimize his parts as authentic USGI. Below is a search for you to read the opinions and discussion. Please form your own opinion. Now I know many have given rave reviews on Larson's work. But when you start really learning about carbines you will see that maybe Larson was not a good investment. On War Baby 3, I have not seen many reviews to the negative. Many do not want to shell out the bucks for that one, but when you consider it is larger then the two previous books put together you might start to think different. Well worth it in my opinion. For the most part books are published with information which is thought to be accurate at the time of printing. In the case of the WB series I believe it was the publisher who would not make corrections when new printing was to be done. In War Baby 3 Larry Ruth addressed this by adding updates and changes to the two previous books. If you are not a serious carbine enthusiast, but a want to know parts markings type of guy then the WB series may not be for you. I would just suggest Reisch for you. War Baby 3 has a large section on foreign aid and the lend lease program and where our carbines served. It also has a large section on commercial carbines. The author of those pages also authored our main pages. If you are not familiar with those main pages just click on the top banner. On the right you will see a menu with some basic to intermediate information on the carbine as will as understanding the parts. The menu will also take you to the commercial pages and the Bavarian/Austrian pages. In that section you can learn a lot about carbines from "The Armory" If you want to learn the minutia of carbine production in all aspects then I would suggest buying the newsletters. I will point out that Larry Ruth is a club member and has contributed a tremendous amount of research to the club over the years. |
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cali201
Grunt Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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Hey He Dog,
Just a reminder of my request from the Welcome topic you posted. When you get the chance, it would be great if you could post some pics of the unlisted mags. Mysteries are one of the favorites on this forum.
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Thanks, I got that, and I appreciate your interest. I just ordered Larson's book and think maybe the situation is that I don't yet have a complete list. After I see that, if they are still different, I will post photos.
The difference are minor: A Keller Brass marked KI upside down, type 3 base, I have no record of a type three base. Incomplete record, or re-build, or least likely, something new? Another is an Autoyre Co. Another is an Autoyre Co. marked AI upside down with a type 2 base, hole in the bottom of back, but no marking on the base.Seymour Products Co. marked SP-S'P' with a type 5 base.I know rebuilds are possible, but I am not sure one can attribute all oddities to rebuild. I know some have been altered to make 5 or 10 round mags, some refinished, but these show no signs to my eye of such alteration. As I say, it is probably that my lists are incomplete.I am sure many much more extensive collections exist than mine and these things are probably known to many not as novice as I am.
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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New2Brass, thank you, I might have read your review before I ordered the book, but at least it's price will not be the most money I ever wasted. I should say if I was not clear before, I am a novice to this (though not to guns and shooting) and only recently came to things M1 Carbine. I am probably not a collector of Carbines, but am fascinated with the magazines. Apparently there were over 150 markings used to identify the maker, and probably the contract, who they were built for etc. So it is really about the mags I am searching for information, along with what I need to know about the builders, carbines etc. to have a more comprehensive view to build a gun show exhibit on the mags.
The reviews I read on WB III were on Amazon, perhaps not the best venue in this case.
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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As stated in the intro on the M1 Carbine Magazines web page, "This page is intended to be ever changing as you the fellow collectors add or correct information on this page, or I find new information myself". You may have a few to add. I don't know if the page's author, Robert Lukes is still updating since it says "Last modified on December 9th, 1998".
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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The e-mail addy is not longer good, that may be one clue. Hafta wonder how that page has managed to hang out there the past 19 years.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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I interesting reading through Amazon reviews on both books.
first issue i had was finding negative reviews on Larson, had to apply filters. Instead I clicked all reviews and read them all. Interesting was Saginaw's review with 4 stars. 2 of the low rated reviews give a clear and concise discription. One even points out the blatant plagiarism. One rave review states he has all the other books and states the titles, then goes on to say that Larson is better without even realising the work is copied from those old including errors! If someone wants to only know what parts go where I would suggest the books he copied. (Hmm, printed in china? Maybe to avoid copyright laws) Two negative reviews on WB3. Though they have some valid points I think they bought the book thinking they could simply look up what part goes where. The simple fact is that no book can state unequivocally those facts. Due to integrated parts both documented or not it is not feasible to chart. The War Baby series is more about the carbine, it's history of production, where the carbines served, etc. It would not be my first choice for figuring what part belongs on a specific carbine. However if i want to know who made what part it is the book I reach for. An interesting note on research, you have to put away what you want the answers to be so you can find what is correct. If you seek a devils advocate you will find it. With that did you read all the reviews on Larson? It was only 24 reviews with many saying only a few words. Hardly a review. The rest makes a clearer picture in my opinion. |
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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I am inclined to agree on Larson, but if he has something to say on mags, it is worth a look I think. In time I will amass enough information to winnow out the chaff. Besides I bought it before you posted.
I read the reviews on III looking for indications of mag information which I did not see, so at that price moved on. I have no real problem buying it if that is the holy grail of who made mags marked XYZ, because I do want the most complete list I can find, and in the end will probably have to compile my own (actually already started but under 50). I was also hoping there might be an advanced mag collector or two here whom I could learn from. So far the posts have been helpful and the conversation stimulating.
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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He Dog,
Welcome to the board! The 1st Edition Larson book shows 8 different Saginaw 15-round magazines. It mentions other magazine manufacturers in the marking index, though I don't know how many are listed in total. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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He Dog, Please do not take my post as a negative to you or your purchase. I am also in no way trying to push you to WB3. As mentioned it is a book geared in one direction and others are in different directions. You have to choose based on what it is you are looking to find out.
I make the points I did for any future searches. Now that Dave has pointed out Larson I will say I do not think much has changed in second edition in respect to magazines. It merely lists codes without orientation or size. WB3 has I believe 7 pages on magazines and the markings. I have not compared the site Cali pointed out to WB3. I think that site might have all or most the information available. Incidentally the author of that page was a club member until 2001. I suspect the page is still up due to dedication to his research or may be attached but not linked to another site which he hosts and no reason to drop it. Two other things, What Auction forum were you referring to on other post? If you go to the newsletter page you will find 3 indexes that you can download. All searchable. I would start with the JR index as it has a mag section. Other you can use search function. COM index will not help you. Again for what you are doing the Linked web page may be sufficient. Best, Dan |
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RClark9595
On Point Joined: Oct 30 2017 Location: WVC Utah Status: Offline Points: 136 |
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I was reading this just out of curiosity and clicked the link above by Robert Lukes, as I scrolled through his data base I saw a mag at the end that I have and that he doesn't, as I understand they are very hard to find, and mine is still new. It's a true 10 round, not a blocked 15, with "Universal Firearms Corp. Hialeah, Florida" stamped on a No5 base plate, the only difference is mine does not have Japan under the top scallop.
Any idea what this magazine would be worth to a collector, I know it's not USGI, but it's pretty rare and unique? |
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Ron
USAF 4535 CCTS F4 Combat Crew Training Vietnam era Vet. |
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gene of oregon
Grunt Joined: Jan 23 2016 Location: silverton, or Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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I have alittle over 60 different 15 round mags not quite half of Robert Lukes list. Would like to continue collecting to retain the 150 that he says he has but with todays prices $20-$50ea. my pockets aren't that deep. I believe I have 3or4 that don't show on his list. I keep looking at the shows, gun and pawn shops but nothing new. I must have all the
easy to find mag's. Lukes list is the best list I've found |
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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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Does anyone know if Mr. Lukes is updating his list?
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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I ran into a dealer at the Tulsa Arms show in November. According to that fellow, Mr. Lukes was at the show, and gave him a list of the mags in Mr. Lukes collection. It was the same list as posted on the mirror site. I gave the dealer my card and told him if Mr. Lukes came back by, I would like very much to talk with him. He said Mr. Lukes seemed tired of the whole topic. I talked with the dealer the next day, but Mr. Lukes had not returned as he had expected. I never heard from either again.I stress this is all second or third hand information, but it does appear Mr. Lukes is still involved to some degree, and perhaps still persuing his collection.In looking at his list compared to the Ruth list in WB III there are some differences, mostly having to do with baseplates. Where Ruth may list a type 3, Lukes shows a type 3 and a type 5. Some may not consider the difference significant. As a novice with now a bit over 80 mags, I remain unsure.
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gene of oregon
Grunt Joined: Jan 23 2016 Location: silverton, or Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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He Dog Curious, would like to compare lists of what we have?
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The flag does not fly because of the wind that blows it. The flag flies because each soldier's last breath blows by it!
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He Dog
Recruit Joined: Aug 24 2017 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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For me it is easier to list what I don't have of the Lukes list. PM me an email addy.
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