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IBM info?

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Spitflier View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 8:08pm
I’m new to carbines and just bought this IBM carbine. I don’t know what I have, any help would be appreciated. There is a 0468 in the sling well on the stock. It was stated that the stock was war worn. I don’t know if it is original but it looks pretty beat up to have been replaced. I was told it was 1944. There is a very light letters imprinted on the left side of the stock, it looks like OCEK in a box but it could be anything that looks like that. serial number 3933443. It’s got the adjustable rear sight and a flat bolt. No bayonet lug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beezer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 8:52pm
I would be interested in seeing some close up photos of the barrel band, and any cartouches on the stock.  

Is the barrel stamped with a manufacturer and date, is there an ordinance bomb stamped on the barrel?  Definitely has some early model parts such as a push button safety. The stock looks to have an I cut for the sling but enlarging the photo makes it look grainy.  The hand guard is not original, it should be wood, possibly a deep groove and 2 rivet hand guard.  

Make sure to download a data sheet and fill it out and email back to the forum gods.  It looks like a nice carbine.  How does the condition of the barrel look?  Shiny, deep groves?  Have you shot it?  


Edited by Beezer - Sep 13 2020 at 9:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 9:23pm

Welcome to the Forum.

Is the OGEK in a Rectangular Box ?

If in a Rectangular Box the Inspectors initials EK stand for Elmer Keith
OG is Ogden Utah Arsenal.

Again if OGEK is in a Rectangular Box, Your Stock and possibly the Carbine was Rebuilt at the Ogden, Utah Arsenal with Elmer Keith as the Inspector.

If the OGEK is not boxed it would have been inspected by Ed Klouser.

I see your stock looks o have a I cut oiler slot with a Hi-wood rail on the right. These were the earliest style M1 carbine stocks.
Your metal hand guard isn't USGI.

Do I see a wood patch on the forward right side ?
Are there any letters in the left side Slingwell ?
Any sign of a Crossed Cannons Stamp on the stock's right rear side- between the oiler slot to the pistol grip?
Any marking on the bottom of the pistol grip ?

We need more pictures.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 9:57pm
Wipe some oil on the barrel just forward of the barrel band and swivel attachment...
Loosen the screw on the bottom of the barrel band/swivel, but don't fully unscrew it.
Press the spring lever in to un-attach it from the slot in the barrel band (on right side) as you push the spring lever in, Push/slide the Barrel band forward off of the Metal hand Guard.
When cleared you can pull the Hand Guard up and forward to remove.
Now you can lift the front of the barrel so it will come free from the Recoil plate thats still mounted on the stock.

This will remove your stock and allow you to pull the complete barreled receiver and still have everything else attached.

You can find Youtube videos on how to strip it down.
Look for markings on every part and note them.
A Data sheet can be useful to ID and document the parts.
A search here will find one you can print off.
I suggest the latest copy of the book by Craig Riesch- US M1 Carbines Wartime Production for a good starter book.

There are no Dumb questions.......... We all started some where.

Ch-P777 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2020 at 8:42am
The 4 digit number in the slingwell suggests the stock may have been on an Austrian/Bavarian return.
They would put the last 4 digits of the serial number on various parts depending on which agency.

From a stock on a NPM from Austria Gendarmerie, Lower Austria

being that the number you state is not consistent with the last 4 numbers of the serial would suggest that stock was not on that carbine when the numbers were stamped.

For more on the occupation carbines

IN the index is a link to "the Armory" where you can look at different agency markings.

most typical places to look for numbers is the bottom of the trigger housing, which would not be part of a serial number, but the serial digits if present would be on the rear of the hosing.
top of the bolt is another common location. Sometimes the slide arm will have numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spitflier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2020 at 6:45pm
wow This is great all the help I’ll try to answer the questions 
The barrel is stamped with IBM Corp but no date
It is an I slot in the stock
There is no ordinance bomb on the barrel
The barrel looks really nice and shiny 
I have not shot it yet I’m headed to the range Wednesday night after work






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spitflier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2020 at 6:58pm
the letters are in a box
It’s not a patch it looks like maybe epoxy or heavy poly
No letters on the left side slingwell 
There is the faintest of crossed cannons and there looks like a P in a circle on the pistol grip
There are more letters near the cannons you can see in the picture looks like maybe a GHD but the first letter I’m not sure about
Should I try to get a wood hand guard and if so where
Thanks for all the great interest





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2020 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Spitflier Spitflier wrote:

the letters are in a box
It’s not a patch it looks like maybe epoxy or heavy poly
No letters on the left side slingwell 
There is the faintest of crossed cannons and there looks like a P in a circle on the pistol grip
There are more letters near the cannons you can see in the picture looks like maybe a GHD but the first letter I’m not sure about
Should I try to get a wood hand guard and if so where
Thanks for all the great interest 

Spitfire,
'You say the letters are in a box.'
Is that the OGEK in the rectangular box we brought up above?
If so, you now know what they mean.

'Not a patch.... Maybe Epoxy or Poly'
So the stock repair is not a wood patch.
Might be Aqua-Glass (spelling ?)

'No letters in Slingwell' But have a '4 Digit number'
The 4 numbers as stated above were to a different action that stock probably seen some service in Europe, Austria/Germany were known to use last 4 digits to mark major parts of a carbine during their service. At some point your IBM was set in that stock. Maybe a previous owner.... (A guess).
Your stock is the first type used, some so early were not marked.

'P in a circle on the pistol grip'
Is the circled P on the bottom of the pistol grip?
If on the Bottom, only a few makers did this early on. It would be a 1/2" diameter circle with a Sans Serif P.
Circled P proof was done on Early: Winchester, Inland , Underwood, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw S'G' (Grand Rapids).

 'Crossed cannons and maybe a GHD but the first letter I’m not sure about.'
Is the GHD at the bottom of the box? Hard to see, your NO photographer!
Very possible it's what's left of a boxed UEF over GHD. That would be Inspector Guy H Drewry (sp?)
for Underwood Elliot Fisher. I've tried blowing the pic up and the view is missing half of the box. The Crossed cannon is very worn but seems correct size compared to the GHD sized letters. Crossed cannon should measure nearly a 1/2" at 0.46". The GHD letters and UEF letters (if there) should be 1/4" high with no periods between them. The total box size with the stacked letters would be a hair over 3/4" x 3/4". I have one here looking at for comparison.

IF:
You can see WRA over GHD in the box you have a early Winchester stock. Inside the stock on the bridge (forward the trigger housing in let) there may be a number or letter. Also if it's a WRA stock look at the I cut oiler slot. If the crossed part of the I at the top and bottom are recessed deeper than the upright part of the I. Odds are you have a Winchester stock. Letters would measure 0.32" high and the box would measure 3/4" x 3/4". No periods between the letters. Crossed cannons would measure 0.60" long.

I believe you have 1 of the 2 stocks mentioned above. It may take looking inside for the letters or number on the bridge to be sure. But if the top and bottom crosses of the I cut oiler ARE recessed, then you have a WRA stock.

Should I try to get a wood hand guard and if so where

Yes, metal ones look like crap on a USGI carbine... IMO.
Ebay and GunBroker have them. You can also list a WTB here on the forum.

Your Barrel Band:
Need a picture of the weld spots on top and a picture of each side.
Can you see a mark on the left side like this / or this // ?

When you get done shooting report back and tell us how she shoots.
When you tear it down to clean get pictures of the major parts inside. Including the top of the sideways wood bridge in front of where your forward part of trigger housing sets. Lok for the letters or numbers stamped on top of it. If it's a WRA stock there should be. 

Make sure you do your homework Approve

Cheers,
Ch-P777




 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spitflier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 5:30pm
I found a handguard on gunbroker it’s an IBM item number 877150488 its $65. Is this something I should pick up or isn’t the gun correct enough to put any more money into it. I emailed the owner asking if it had 2 or 4 rivets she wrote back There are two holes on the top side, one on each side of the hand guard. 
Not really sure if this the right one for my gun. 
I bought it as a shooter. I was going to buy a new one but they aren’t to easy to find in this frenzy of gun sales and the price was not much cheaper than an original. Being a sort of history buff I liked the idea of an original. I have a Garand from CMP I bought about 4 years ago. I’m glad I did they have almost got doubled in price.
The cross part of the I are definitely deeper recess than the upright 
There is a / on the barrel band. The stock has been patched  now that I have been studying it        Thanks for all the help it’s been fun learning about this gun




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 5:46pm
Looks like the screw on front band has been replaced.  Might just be my eyes but front band looks to have been welded on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beezer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 5:49pm
the two rivet handguard would be correct for an early model IBM stock. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by Beezer Beezer wrote:

the two rivet handguard would be correct for an early model IBM stock. 

I think only early WRA I cut stocks have the upper and lower cross of the I recessed deeper than the upright l .

I can't remember if early Underwood I cuts were the same or not.

As far as the wood hand guard I wouldn't worry about maker, I'd just try to match wear/tear and color.

I've never held/seen a metal HG in person.
Did they have to cut a relief in a GI stock for them ?

$65 for a hand guard...... What kind was it?

You shoot Wednesday right? Let us know how it shoots.
BTW, I have a box of Post War hand guards. Remind me later and I'll see if I can put something together for you that matches wear/color......... Don't pay that much for one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 10:16pm
I cut stocks made by Marlin have been observed with the deep cuts in the I cut

**EDIT TO ADD**

I would really like to see better pictures of the stock markings. Outside under a tree or if the cloud is covering the sun makes for very good lighting.

I also second the motion to look inside the stock for markings on the ledges or bridge.


Edited by New2brass - Sep 15 2020 at 11:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spitflier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 22 minutes ago at 8:42am
well I finally got to the range yesterday 
Shot 2 1/2” group at 50 yards off a sand bag 
I have a pressing question it seems I have an IBM gun with a Winchester stock and a metal handguard. I have found an IBM stock with matching handguard bid starting at $100 being that a walnut handguard is $35-$50 would it increase the value of my gun to put the matching manufacturer’s stock on or because it’s not the original would it be just as prudent to change out the metal guard for a 2 rivet handguard. I don’t know how to insure a color match of a a handguard and if it doesn’t should I try to stain it to match. If I get the IBM stock is there a market for my Winchester stock. On another front should I change the barrel band since this one has been welded to one with a bayonet lug to be correct for the gun. I’m not really into it for the collector/investment but if I could do something to make it correct I’m not opposed to doing so

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 16 minutes ago at 10:48am
That is a question you will need to answer for yourself. Either way would be "right". Many of us will take a rebuilt gun and put correct parts on it just because we like it that way. We are not trying to restore a gun necessarily, but we like to have them "look right". Others want to restore the guns and others don't replace the parts because the history of the carbine is what it is! You need to decide what is more important to you and base your decision on that. Personally, I would replace the stock and handguard, just to make it a bit more correct. Would it increase the value of the carbine? yes, but probably not as much as the stock would cost. But then you would have a spare stock that could be kept for another carbine later, or sold to someone else who needed it. Just don't wait too long to make you decision or that stock you are looking at may be gone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 36 minutes ago at 11:28am
Originally posted by Spitflier Spitflier wrote:

On another front should I change the barrel band since this one has been welded to one with a bayonet lug to be correct for the gun.

The type 2 band that you currently have on your carbine is correct for your carbine, although as previously mentioned looks like it has the wrong screw installed. I'd leave the band alone. Also agree with everything Smokpole said above.
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