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IBM gas piston

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halbert View Drop Down
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    Posted: Feb 01 2018 at 9:57pm
I'm an M1 Carb. newbie (newbie on the CCForum, not by age and not to guns) and perhaps my first post will make that fact painfully clear. After something like forty+ years, I decided to open up the .30 M1 Carbine I bought on a whim around 1975 or so, out of a Richmond, VA Sunday newspaper.  
Question: Is it unusual for the gas piston in my IBM to be completely without stamped markings of any kind? To my horror, I also found that the gas piston retainer nut was loose. Good thing I hadn't fired it very much--probably not since shortly after I bought it.
 
Don't yell at me, but any input would be appreciated. I'm in the process of clawing my way through the Carbine Club data sheet I printed out day-before-yesterday. It's likely I'll be back here for more free advice.
Thanks for not laughing. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinecanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2018 at 10:59pm
First of all welcome to the club. It is guaranteed, now that you've picked up that carbine, you will be hooked on one of the most underrated yet fascinating firearms.

Second ...do not lose sleep over either the concerns you have. I am pretty certain Inland was the only manufacturer to mark their gas pistons (experts please correct me if otherwise).
And the nut can be tightened. There is a GI tool made specifically for it, but can also be accomplished with other tools.

Third ...can't wait to see what your data sheet shows. Pictures would be even better :)

Kind regards -TT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 5:24am
Welcome to the forum.  Along with what carbinecanuck said, Riesch states that only Inland marked their gas pistons however there is discussion in one of the CCNLs about one having an R on it.  There are others on the forum who can help for sure.  Also if interested in staking or not staking the gas piston nut here's a previous thread we had not long ago.  Also it never hurts just to ask.  Lots of folks on here willing to help.  Good to have ya.

Also if you haven't done so, click on the sniper scoped carbine in the banner at the top of the page.  It'll connect you with the reference page.  Lot's of good info and especially the Parts section can help with the Datasheet.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote halbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 9:19am
Thanks for the input canuk and sling. I guess the next order of business, other than completing my data sheet, will be to look into acquiring a gas nut wrench and perhaps a bolt assy./disassy. tool. Any suggestions as to sources for these besides Brownells or Midway? Question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 9:25am
Welcome to the forum. You can get both tools at Northridge.
http://www.northridgeinc.com/product-p/m1c-106.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 11:03am
BTW...Somewhere I read the USGI bolt tools are better than the aftermarket/reproductions and maybe someone can help out on that claim.  Northridge claims their's to be USGI, hence the price which for what I've seen lately seems about right.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 3:47pm
I had a mess of loose 1/4 inch drive Taiwan sockets. Picked out a 7 mm 6 point socket. The 6 piont helps guide to match the gas nut useing the Dremel tool with thin cut off disc. After initial cuts, then cut the pieces a couple times that you want to remove and they will break out easily. Clean up the best you can to match the nut.  James K.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 4:53pm
Currently on Ebay you can get a Bolt tool, Piston wrench and Trigger spring tool for $52.00 + $4.00 ship. Advertised as new.
I try to keep 5 or 6 extra Bolt tool 'Pawls' around. The split end on these can/will often break.

I have worked with WWII, Post WWII GI and Commercial Bolt tools.... all worked fine, it's the PAWL that will fail.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote halbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 5:04pm
James, I have been considering that very thing. I make no claim on originality of the thought as I saw the suggestion on a YouTube video. If memory serves me correctly, I believe the guy in the video said he was using a 9mm socket.
I was pretty fair with a Dremel tool back before I turned seventy and had a visit by the detached retina fairy. Did some mean hammer-bobbing and trigger-smoothing jobs on S&W bull-guns back in my NMSS(civilian PPC) days--like early 1980's. I'll try to let you know how mine turns out. Still need that bolt tool though. Anybody have one they aren't in love with? $40+ bucks seems a little stupid for a 77 Y/O who will probably not use it a bunch of times from here on down-range to his last target. Wink H- 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote halbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 5:29pm
Thanks painter. I'll check it out.  H-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2018 at 6:19pm
To be honest I've never used the Trigger spring tool. I pull the guts from a Bic pen and use the outer plastic tube, works fine and plenty around.

I've had carbines brought over with the piston retaining nut ruined from not using the correct wrench. I'm not saying the above mentioned customized socket won't work, but use caution because that nut will have to be tightened back in place. You don't want to mar the finish on the barrels' flat. Be careful, they just need to be lightly snugged, no torque wrench needed. I recently seen a RMC barrel trashed, that I removed from a Winchester Spring Tube Receiver that this same nut had been crossed threaded on, and cracked the gas cylinder. It looked as though Vice Grips were the tool of choice. New Owner had bought this Papered NRA Carbine at a farm auction..... and had paid way too much! for what could only be a single shot. Being 6'7" and mad about it, he bent that barrel over his knee in to a horse shoe shape, as he walked back to his truck. Now he's wanting me to sell the receiver for him. I wish he would have saved the barrel, bent or not. I think I could have hand screwed it back on and been able to send to a C and R dealer, instead of now having to go through a FFL. If I'm correct about the shipping laws. Of course I would of clearly explained the barrel issue to a potential buyer.
It looked like that rifle barrel that could shoot around the corner.
My Father still shot very accurately well in to his late 80's, until the Alzheimer's became insurmountable. WWII Vet and one of the best 'Natural' shooters' I'd ever seen. Died a year ago Jan 30-17 at age 91.

Welcome, Good luck, and hope to see you out there on the range for 20+ years to come.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote halbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 03 2018 at 2:11pm
If, and I repeat, if I were to make my own gas piston retaining nut wrench I would certainly try to make sure the three "teeth" that engage the nut have an appropriate amount of "rake" on both short sides of each tooth--"rake" meaning that the teeth engage the recesses in the nut at the tips of the "teeth" (at the bottom of the recesses--but only ever so slightly a "rake" angle). "Timing would also be a concern--meaning that all three teeth engage at precisely the same "time".
Who am I kidding? It would be a lot less costly to just buy a twenty dollar wrench than worry about all that! Besides, I'd have to buy the wrench anyway to install the new retainer nut I paid twelve or fifteen bucks for after I buggered up the original--not to mention the damage I'd probably do to the barrel assembly. Confused
 
This reminds me of a trick I learned years ago about dressing blade type screwdrivers: Once you have filed or ground the blade tip to suit your purpose, chuck it up in a vise in the vertical position. Now take a good, smooth headed hammer and lightly peen the flat end of the screwdriver to give it a slight "flare" or "ski-tipped shape along the length of the blade-tip. This will allow the blade to "bite into" the root of the groove of the screw and help prevent the tip from slipping out of the screw slot when torqueing it. Thanks for the help, painter. H-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2018 at 7:01pm
After reading about the piston nut, I puled my S'G' out of the closet to check mine.
I found it to have three slots, and two very tiny punch marks but a very slight movement.
I'm sure it won't unscrew. Thought it worth mentioning.
Charles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote halbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2018 at 10:08pm
Haven't had time to get back to my IBM and the data sheet. Got too much going on right now so I guess I'll just put it back together for the time being. Don't want any parts sprouting legs. Wink
 
In the meantime, I've gotten to thinking about staking that piston retainer nut. Somewhere in all the discussion here, I remember someone mentioning using Loctite, "blue" on it (haven't been able to find the comment). I'm no expert on Loctite, but the Loctite we used to use on hydraulic cylinder rod-studs had to be heated to something like 500 deg. F in order to remove the stud at a later time. Is there something different about the "blue" Loctite? Seems to me that a couple of stake-dimples would be the way to go--and light dimples at that. Seems to me that staking one slot on the clockwise side of the slot and then the second slot to the CCW side of its slot would suffice. Staking threads just gives me the "willies" anyway. I get these terrible visions of stripped or badly buggered-up threads if the danged thing ever needs to be removed. Probably making a mountain out of a mole-hill, but some things just stroke my fur the wrong way. Opinions? Ermm H-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2018 at 9:40am
halbert, the blue Loctite products are medium strength and can be easily removed when needed, the red Loctite products are for heavy duty use and are a SOB to remove. As far as staking goes there are different opinions, I stick with what was written in a PS Monthly Magazine in I believe 1961, here is what it says concerning the gas piston nut. "It has been found that when the nut's securely seated there's no need for the nut to be staked."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2018 at 10:08am
If you didn't back-track far enough, here's the PS Monthly Magazine provided by New2brass. 
Just to muddy the water a little, Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual, p 102 says, "M1 Carbine gas cylinder/gas piston nuts should be very lightly staked, at A(diagram of recess/notch in cylinder face), after seating. A prick punch, as illustrated below (a sharp pointed punch), makes an excellent nut staking tool."

Is it possible the PS Magazine's position was based on the GI audience and to preclude more harm than good?   If you don't stake it then you can check it after each trip to the range so I'm thinking no harm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2018 at 11:10am
In Tech Manual TM9-1276 it states in the rebuild section, page 110, Examine to determine that the gas cylinder has been staked very lightly into the nut in one place only.
So, it seems there are several schools of thought.
If the piston moves freely back and forth, leave the nut alone.
Charles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2018 at 12:12pm
Consider the amount that the carbine was shot in service vs in the hands of the individual.
PS Monthly was publication for the military by the military. I suspect that the pistons either needed cleaning more than originally thought or the heavy staking lead to unsalvageable barrels when piston maintenance was needed.
 
Note how Kuhnhausen says to stake lightly. Basically a little pressure would hold it in place without damaging the threads.
 
I can envision that a loose nut would create excess piston play causing damage. If it got to the end threads it could possibly strip the threads off.
 
Bottom line I would say do not remove a staked nut unless absolutely necessary. Use caution should you have to remove piston. Check and clean the threads with an appropriate tool before reinstalling.
 
If re-staking do so lightly.
If not staking to check the nut tightness during routine cleaning.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2018 at 5:06pm
I like this...
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

  
Bottom line I would say do not remove a staked nut unless absolutely necessary.   
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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