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IBM Carbine ?stock "upgrade"?

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dlabarge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IBM Carbine ?stock "upgrade"?
    Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 3:23pm
Good afternoon folks!  I'm a newbie to the club and just bought my first carbine about a month ago.  I will get some pictures when I get home and introduce you all to her.  My only disappointment really is the stock.  It is unmarked, and has been refinished with an extra sling swivel screwed into the bottom.  On the plus side it is a high wood, 2 rivet, Type 2 stock correct for my 3,808,xxx IBM carbine. which would be a good fit.  Since I can't undo the finish and I have no markings in the sling well, no cartouche, and no pistol grip markings, all I have to go on is an OI marking on the handguard so I guess that's Inland.I'm debating a $300ish investment on a RockOla B to get a really nice Type I High wood IBM stock, but that would not actually be factory correct for this carbine either...I guess that's my question, Am I crazy to spend that kind of money to put a type 1 stock on my rifle?  Thanks in advance...Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 4:25pm
Hi Don and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!

I guess it depends on what you really want out of your carbine. I certainly would be sure the rest of your carbine is original enough to be worth the added cost of an expensive IBM stock. Like you say, it still wouldn't necessarily be "correct". Does it still have the original safety, rear sight and barrel band? What shape is the metal finish? Has it been through a rebuild? Is it a decent shooter? Perhaps after seeing the pictures of the carbine we can say more but my initial response is to hold off until more is known about your carbine.

Maybe the first step would be to fill out and submit a Carbine Club Data Sheet so we can see exactly what you have.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 6:50pm
Welcome to the forum Don.  Looking forward to seeing "her".
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dlabarge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 9:50pm


Sorry it took me awhile to figure out the photos...thanks for the post to use Microsoft Paint for resizing!

To my very novice eye and understanding, this stock is refinished and shows no manufacturer markings. A sling swivel was added on the underside. The handguard appears to be an Inland OI marked. The high wood with oval oiler to my understanding does make it a type II stock which is correct for the serial number 3,808,xxx IBM.
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dlabarge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 10:11pm



Although there are not markings on several parts that I see, it looks like an inland flat top bolt. I know the safety and rear sight "upgrade" was a common rearsenal for the early carbines, but I was curious what you all think about how they affect value. When I look this weapon up in Fjestad's Blue Book 40th/newest edition, page 2148, he puts the carbines in 4 groups (Reworks and commercial mfg, Original Type I (flip rear sight no bayonet lug), Original Type II (adj. rear sight and no bayonet lug), and Original Type III (adj. rear sight with bayonet lug). To me that says this is an Original Type II rifle. For IBM rifles, the difference between original Type I and Type II in value is about $500 in near perfect 98%+ condition and drops to about $100-200 difference in the 90-95% condition range. Less than 90% condition the difference is about $100 or less. That would certainly make refitting those original parts less appealing for investment purposes considering those parts would cost more than the $100-200 increase in value?   The stock however strikes me as a bit out of place, hence my original post requesting advice on whether or not to "upgrade".

Thank you for your patience with me as I try to better understand this amazing piece of U.S. military history!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 10:50pm
Replacing the stock will not necessarily add value to your carbine. However a USGI stock might fit better than the commercial stock you have now and may make it look more "original". Right now it looks like the hand guard is just barely engaged with the receiver and the barrel band is ill fitting on the nose of the stock. The commercial stock, Inland bolt, flip safety, adjustable rear sight and Winchester hammer suggests that it's a reworked carbine, not "original" as the Blue Book defines it. The good news is it does have a Type I barrel band (if not a repro) and probably the original barrel and trigger housing. The slide and TH internals are unknown, but to correct the rest of it to be like an "original" you would have to replace more than the stock. The sum of the parts would be greater than the whole. I suggest finding an inexpensive post war Type 3 or 4 USGI stock and call it done.   
JackP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 11:26pm
Thank you again JackP! I admit that as I was gathering the photos I realized an expensive stock would not make sense at this point.
Specifically regarding the rear sight and safety, I have read that these enhancements were considered significant enough to have been rearsenaled in theater to give the GIs a better weapon. Any opinion on that or whether there's any way to tell if that might have been done on a given carbine? With regard to the stock, one last question in my mind...can I ask what you would consider to be a fair price to pay for an "inexpensive" stock?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 12:14am
It's fair to assume that the rear sight and safety enhancements were indeed field or arsenal changes, but there's no way to know for sure. A lot of surplus carbines returned from MAP or Lend Lease countries found their way back to the states and into the hands of civilians without necessarily being processed through an arsenal. However, the well meaning civilian owner often chose to upgrade them themselves. There's no telling where the commercial stock came from. Wartime or post war Type 3 or 4 stocks can be found for between $50 land $100 on Ebay. Look for Springfield Armory "potbelly" (Type 5) stocks. They're usually under $100.   Also, check with Whatacountry.com. I've purchased several wartime, slightly damaged stocks from them for under $100 that were easily repaired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 12:40am
Don, Could you post pictures of the butt plate and recoil plate? It may give us a clue as to the manufacturer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 6:07am
I have a Universal high-wood stock and it mimics an original high-wood very well and I suspect that is a Universal stock. From a distance, it will fool just about anybody, but the tolerances as compared to GI stocks are way off. To get a GI hand guard to fit properly, one has to mix-n-match guards of various lengths, or perform some innovative carpentry work on the nose to slide the band farther back over the lip on the guard and then you may have band-spring engagement issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 8:13am




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 9:38am
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I have a Universal high-wood stock and it mimics an original high-wood very well and I suspect that is a Universal stock. From a distance, it will fool just about anybody, but the tolerances as compared to GI stocks are way off. To get a GI hand guard to fit properly, one has to mix-n-match guards of various lengths, or perform some innovative carpentry work on the nose to slide the band farther back over the lip on the guard and then you may have band-spring engagement issues.


My thoughts too. Universal had some high quality stocks detailed on the Universal subcategory on this forum and compiled by Jim. The one I bought struck me from a distance as Winchester.

That looks like a solid Carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 10:26am
 I guess my last question along this post then is what would be a reasonable ballpark for the value of this carbine. I’m not planning to sell it right away or anything, but as I work on my collection it seems there’s always wheeling and dealing, so like everyone else I’d like to be fair to others and  avoid getting ripped off! many thanks to everyone!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 10:48am
Originally posted by dlabarge dlabarge wrote:

 I guess my last question along this post then is what would be a reasonable ballpark for the value of this carbine. I’m not planning to sell it right away or anything, but as I work on my collection it seems there’s always wheeling and dealing, so like everyone else I’d like to be fair to others and  avoid getting ripped off! many thanks to everyone!

It can vary by locale. In some parts of the country, people report one can’t touch a shooter for less than $1000. Barreled actions alone go for north of $600. In my neck-of-the-woods this carbine may fetch $700-$750. The stock is the killer. Universal stocks can go for almost the cost of shipping. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:01am
I go along with the others, it looks like it's a Universal butt plate. The stock also has the cutout for the Universal scope mount bracket.

If the internals look as good as your pictures show and it's not import stamped, it could fetch $800 to $900 at a local gun show in my part of the world.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlabarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:11am
 Thank you again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:25am
An Universal stock before the days of the cast trigger housing.

Nice carbine BTW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:44am
dlabarge, If you decide to go the "pot belly" stock route, I have a couple of solid unmarked ones that I would be willing to part with along with a matching handguard. On another note, in the picture you posted of your front band with the sling swivel and sling attached, your swivel is installed incorrectly, it should be turned around so that the swivel lays flat against the stock, also looks like your hammer pin is installed from the right side of your trigger housing, it should be installed from the left side.
PM me if interested in one of the pot belly stocks, I can send pictures so you could choose. I would be looking at $65 shipped.

Edited by W5USMC - Jun 08 2019 at 1:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 12:09pm
One other thought. If you plan to use that stock, check the fitment of the trigger pin. Universal stocks my be cut a bit wide in the trigger-guard area to accommodate their cast GI style housings. They used a longer trigger-pin and a GI pin may work it’s way out. Maybe not the case with all of their stocks, but it is with the one I have now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 1:07pm
Don, the potbelly stock would be the best choice for a "shooter" carbine. It's extra thick cross section and longer barrel channel would add rigidity to the carbine, especially since you have the thinner Type 1 barrel band. SA potbellies are usually birch and often have some attractive grain and color variations that you don't see in walnut.

Here's an example:




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