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IBM AO 3906262

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NewScotlander View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IBM AO 3906262
    Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 11:26am
This carbine is in original, as manufactured condition. It was stored improperly at one time and has some oxidation in various locations.

The stock was made by Sprague Carleton and is made of Birch. It has a crack on the right side between the oiler slot and the butt plate, but otherwise it has the original finish and is unsanded.

The slide is an E379 type and is marked AOB EE on the inside of the inertia block (slide box). It has the increased dwell (D7160091) modifications discussed in CCNL 364, pages 4-6.










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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 12:23pm
Nice! Have never seen the additional documentation provided with the data sheet. Seems easier than writing everything on the back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 3:02pm
That Newscotlander fella is a thorough guy! One of the very best!   For new collectors - note how IBM had difficulty with their leading 3 in the serial number. This is actually quite common, and because of this, the old Carbine Club received a number of data sheets on 8 million range IBMs! But all of them, as far as I know, were later noted as just bad stampings of a 3.

The rust on the muzzle reminded me - NEVER put one of those canvas muzzle protectors on your carbine. The one with the little strap that you snap on.

They attract moisture (humidity) like a sponge and will ruin a muzzle. I once owned a 24,000 range Inland that was factory-original and gorgeous, almost mint....with that beautiful blue-dulite finish. But alas, the entire muzzle and front sight area was toast! Really ugly! If I hadn't been so anxious for a representative 1942 Inland, I should'a passed on it.

Patience pays....MB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 3:52pm
Marty, Thanks for the compliment, but I still owe you a few beers.

The Supplement for the data sheet is just something I made up. If someone wants to use it, here is a blank copy. I just print it on the back of the data sheets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 4:11pm
Captured. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 4:55pm
Motion to add to data sheet PDF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eestes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 9:07pm
Thank you for sharing this. This is priceless information for new collectors such as myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2017 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Motion to add to data sheet PDF.
I just figured out the data sheets, now you're going to add all this stuff to confuse me. Rats.
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2017 at 7:02pm
In regards to the Bridgeport/Maguire manufactured receiver on this IBM Carbine, does anyone know if AO marked the first 3 digits of the serial number, and if IBM added the 4-digit SN suffix? Perhaps this has been covered in a CCNL? The SN appears to be two separate roll marks, with clearly different fonts. I don't want to rehash something that has probably already been covered, but that's my initial impression. I like the AO connection with these IBM Carbines, since I'm a TSMG guy...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2017 at 10:33pm
Seems unlikely, but would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject. I don't believe this subject has been discussed previously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 4:59am
I looked at the AO Carbine chapter written by Larry Ruth in "The Ultimate Thompson Book,"(TUTB) by Tracie L. Hill, featuring AO M1 Carbine receiver serial number 3870580, which is 35,682 earlier than serial number 3906262 shown in this thread. The serial number shown in TUTB (3870580) is as uniform and consistent as can be, and appears to have a different font than 3906262.

I'd like to see more examples of AO Carbine serial numbers to compare to 3906262. I will see if I can get any other photos.

Serial number 3906262, shown here, has fairly apparent inconsistencies in its serial number roll markings. The first 3 numbers are an obviously different font than the last 4 digits. For the sake of discussion, let's call the first 3 numbers "Group 1," and the last 4 numbers, "Group 2." The spacing between the Group 1 numbers appears much tighter. There appears to be a transitional space between Group 1 and Group 2, and then the Group 2 numbers continue in a much wider spacing than Group 1. Also, it appears there is about a 1/16" difference in horizontal spacing between the two groups.

Summary of Differences:

- Two different fonts
- Different spacing between digits in Group 1 and Group 2
- Horizontal spacing difference between Group 1 and Group 2



My opinion, based on the physical evidence, is that 3906262 had two separate roll markings. So now, we need to theorize why two separate markings exist. I suppose it could be some kind of factory anomaly, where there was a problem with a die, and this serial ended up being applied as a "one-off." If other examples like this exist, then that theory is probably unlikely. Another theory could be that the serial was applied at two different factories. Since these receivers were made in Bridgeport, CT, and assembled into Carbines at IBM in New York, perhaps there was some kind of cooperative effort on serial number application. I don't have a very good reason for this...If a serial number could be applied in one manufacturing operation, that would be the most cost effective option. But...the physical evidence seems to lead us down an alternate path.

Your thoughts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 3:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wmmwraghd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 4:36pm
thank for the great IBM AO thread!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 6:18pm
Looks like at some point in the 3.9 SN range, the font of the 9 changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manteo97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 7:11pm
This is all very interesting. I have been researching S/N stamping for a few years now, looking for reasons why so many S/N's seemed to be either scrapped or skipped. S/N's were stamped prior to heat treatment, one of the very last processes in manufacturing a receiver.

A good review of IBM carbines can be found in NL329, where both IBM and IBM-AO S/N ranges are given. Ruth says AO made 50,000, and they are found in the S/N ranges of approx 3836400 to 3907700, mixed in with non AO IBM receivers. NL 288 has 2 COM IBM's with exact same S/N's, one is an AO, other is not. So some over run or duplications in evidence. However, no mention of what now appears to be prefix stamping of (possibly) 384- to 390- by AO.

I would submit that AO, as a subcontractor, was attempting to have traceability of their receivers, either as heat numbers and/or date of production runs. Easiest way is to sequentially stamp a number on the receiver.

Schmidt made the marking machines that marked Inland and STD PRO, so one might assume that IBM was using the same. As to different fonts, the dies did wear out and were replaced, and more than 1 stamping machine was usually employed during operations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 8:54pm
Looks like the last 4 in the photo montage have the same characteristics. Manteo97's hypothesis seems plausible. We may never know for certain why these serial numbers appear broken into two different roll marks, but it's fun to theorize, and Monday morning quarterback it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 10:11pm
Top row 4th one over looks like it's stamped 3888112 if my eyes are seeing it correct, My IBM is # 3888281 but is not stamped with the AO. Had tried to post pics before a few weeks ago but we can't or just do not know how to down size. Still looking for help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by SWANEEDMB SWANEEDMB wrote:


. Had tried to post pics before a few weeks ago but we can't or just do not know how to down size. Still looking for help.


http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/pictures-tips-sizing-and-posting-avatars_topic1083.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welbytwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2017 at 11:32pm
looks like the 3 font got changed 4-5 times
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 12 2017 at 8:53am
Auto Ordnance receivers must have duplicated serial numbers with IBM receivers. IBM's assigned serial number range was 3,651,520-4,009,999. The highest IBM serial number known to exist is 3,907,689, so it is estimated that production of IBM made receivers ended around 3,909,000. If we consider that IBM used all the serial numbers between 3,651,520 and 3,909,000, that would add up to 317,480 carbines. According to War Baby!, page 475, IBM produced 346,500 carbines. So where did the other 29,000 IBM carbines come from? Either there is a large stockpile of IBM carbines somewhere with serial numbers between 3,909,000 and 4,009,999 or there is serial number duplication.

We already know of a few examples of serial number duplication between IBM receivers and IBM/AO receivers. The lowest and highest IBM/AO serial numbers are 3,835,477 and 3,907,689 respectively. The difference between those two is 72,212. If you add the 72,212 with the 317,480 IBM made receivers above, this adds up to 389,692, and take into consideration scrapped receivers (see CCNL 357, page18-19), the numbers seem to work out.

My opinion is that Auto Ordnance stamped the whole serial number on their receivers. The number font used on the AO receivers is different that that used on the IBM receivers. Now IBM could have had a separate numbering machine that they dedicated solely to the AO receivers that came to their facility, but I just don't think that was the case.

Some interesting things to note on the serial number compilation photo that I posted. The early small serial numbers are mostly straight and clear with one exception (3862782). The change from the early small serial numbers to the later style occurs between 3870858 and 3872240. The first indication of a problem with the first digit (3) in the serial number is at 3885555. The first time the second digit (9) is of a different font is at 3906xxx. Notice how the 7 in 3881374, 3892774 and 3899170 are all the same. Notice that the 7 in 3886076 appears to be hand stamped over a weak 7 below it. I think there was more handstamping going on as well.

The font of the AO on the rear bevel changed as well (see NL345, page5-7), but by 3853685 the changeover to the style seen on most receivers in the photo compilation ad taken place. The style on 3881374 is the earliest style seen. That receiver was probably delayed in being serial numbered for some reason.
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