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How many WWII Carbines avoided rebuild, and how?

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Carl Bine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Bine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How many WWII Carbines avoided rebuild, and how?
    Posted: Jul 12 2020 at 9:32pm
What are the ways a WWII M1 Carbine could have avoided a rebuild at an arsenal?

Bring backs... yes, but how else could it have happened. I mean, there had to be a significant amount, look how many "100% No rebuild!" guns are on GB. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2020 at 10:33pm
Good question.

A carbine could have been purchased upon returning home. Haven't seen many of them and I'm not sure if that option was available to all those returning from WW2. For some reason, I'm thinking it was only officers. Others more knowledgeable than me would know the specifics.

When they come up for sale though...this is what happens:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2020 at 10:57pm
I've not seen that type document before, must be pretty scarce.
Even at that, over $19,000 for a carbine just boggles my mind; but then to some folks
$19,000 is probably not even a night on the town.Shocked


Edited by 03manV - Jul 12 2020 at 11:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Bine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2020 at 11:08pm
The Rock Island Auctions have gone nutso. I was a phone bidder on the last auction in June with my eyes on a few things. Before I could even react the bids blew past the estimates. Guns are hot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 3:41am
I can not tell much for the British but it may happen the way they use to deal with their stock of weapons is part of the answer. For example with the vehicle, they would not keep them that long in service and sell them.

In France you used to encounter quite some original Carbine from the second world war (or any other weapons as it goes): there was the one which were parachuted to the resistance movements and were never surrender (note that is true for about every kind of weapons). Also, as the Free French Forces were mostly equipped by the USA some bring back may have happened. Then you would have had the gifts, repayments or just marketed by American soldiers. In the 60ies my Dad had meet people who had Carbine and 1911 pistol given to them by Americans they had sheltered for some nights: As the money was not much worth for them the guy gave them his weapons. Also he told me many years ago about this American soldier who was trying to sell a 1911 pistol at his school door. I was also told by this guy from Normandy who own a very original Jeep its story: The Jeep crew was killed by the German in an ambush so a peasant buried the guys and hide the car under hay in is barn so you can guess it was the same for the weapons if not reused by resistance.
Also when one of my uncle had an armory, he would recuperate lot of weapons from the war. I remember how, in two consecutive weeks he had in very good nick sets of three US Army regulation weapons: A Carbine, an US M3 grease gun and a Garand.
Those weapons from the world wars, both 1st and 2nd and from every where (I saw at my uncle's the parachutist Arizaka!)do still pop up nowadays but most of the time they ended up trashed as demil.
But having said that I have no clue about the number which could still lye around. What I can say is that when one surface, if not a bring back from the colonial wars (Indochina and Algeria) those Carbine are most of the time untouched and sometime surprisingly in good nick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 6:47am
Really depends on what it is and if original. Unfortunately, even non original carbines can bring big dollars. Have seen a few sell on GB recently for 4-6k yet they were obvious restorations.

Carbines with documentation are very hard to find. There was another one, Sebastian Hafer?, I think but the provenance was hard to figure out vs a direct purchase. 

The majority of the price paid for that RIA carbine was just for the piece of paper.. Take that paper away and it is still a hard to find carbine. Late, original Inland with a 45 barrel. The look on the auctioneer faces as it went through the roof was priceless. One thing I have noticed is that when one finds late war carbines, they are usually in very good condition. Guessing since they weren’t used much if at all.

The great thing about that piece of paper with Mr. Bouquet’s name on it is it can be a starting point for research and he does have an interesting history. Fortunately, his name wasn’t John Smith.

All it takes is two people wanting something and prices go through the roof whether it is original or not. The last RIA Premier has a nice RA-P arsenal marked M1A1. Final price....7k+. A crazy price for an arsenal carbine, but not out of the question if it were original.

If a carbine is nice, original and rare, chances are every advanced carbine collector knows about it. Finding a nice original carbine on the cheap isn’t easy in the days of the internet. It could be mislabeled, also rare in the internet age. If one is found, it will probably be sold at an auction in the middle of nowhere, with a guy on the back of truck and a bullhorn moving trough a field a auctioning off a veterans estate. Much better, IMO, than sitting in an auction house for hours on end waiting for your item to come up.

Had’t thought about the foreign country angle. All one has to do is have it after the war and then somehow it makes it back into the US.

For me at least the best part isn’t the Carbine. It is the story of how it got from the factory to me as in who carried it, who sold it to me and the story in between. About as rare as the 20k carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 7:42am
My dad brought back, with the exception of the IO stock, a 100 % correct Saginaw S'G' 3549***. Unfortunately I never thought to ask about the ornately carved stock on it that was done in the Philippines  for my dad as recognition for his services. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 8:48am
This is the issue. Is there a way to know is you have a real as issued carbine outside of authentic bring back or other government/manufacturer documentation? For my dollar I say no.  In fact bring backs may not be as issued at all but still valuable as documented fighting rifles.

Any othe type of rifle even if correct is a rebuild, certainly worth more money as a correct rebuild but it's not as issued and the water is now muddy.

I've seen one M1A1 with papers in my life as a bring back. I'm not a collector so I'm sure there are more but as a not very conservative estimate I can't imagine more than 1/3 of 1%, even that number is 20,000  as issued bring back rifles so it's probably unlikely. They manufactured over 6 million.

I appreciate this site as there are REAL collectors here with real knowledge and that's important for history and for guys like me who want good but non collectable parts for our family rifles.

However the cheats are depriving the average family access to one of the best if not the best personal defence rifles available by driving the cost of  rifles and parts to unreasonable levels. A new (current manufacture) carbines price is so high, at $1,100 that other choices are being made. A shooter WWII carbine in great shape can bring $1,400 in my area, a correct shooter even more. A Ruger M4 clone was under $700 before the crazy set in, so buy 1 M1 Carbine or a Ruger for half as much, not much of a choice for a family man on a budget.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 9:35am
It happened in lots of different ways. One recent accounting was from back in the day in MI as a government employee went through fishing camps selling Carbines out of a vehicle for reasonably low prices, a soldier who probably got them from the nearby military base he probably worked at.

You hear bring-back cast around at shows just like clip is used instead of "magazine". Where would we say that the Box of Ten Winchesters was brought back from? 'Bring back' is a term used for an item that may have never left the USA nor seen a day of service, is my point. Two freshly created 'bring backs' have just been reported on the Royal Tiger threads as people state they got one with no import marks. Yeah, I'm a skeptic. Did they swap barrels or were they really not stamped? It won't matter in a couple of years because they'll just be bring backs.

Nowhere in this statement do I refute that there are actual bring-backs so nobody start the typical argument against something not said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 10:25am
Maybe "bring home" would be more suitable than bring back? 
The French soldier did "bring home" things what ever they were (it is quite well known that our guys went through the Mauser collection in Oberndorf at the end of the war! Amazing how one can find Mauser prototypes in France).
But I am digressing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 10:31am
 I completely agree, even if there is documentation, I'd have to scan it and post it here just to try and validate the documentation. By then someone scooped it up at an unreasonable price even if the paper work was fake.

I know I'll get flayed for this but the 30 Carbine was the most viable combat rifle from the U.S. in WWII. As that it deserves to be remembered. 

The 30 Carbine rifle and cartridge combination was the genesis of close quarters combat rifles for the U.S.. The Car 15 and M4 are evolutionarily improvements and now the M4 platform with the new Hornady 6MM ARC is the next step. A 108 grain projectile in a 7 to 8 lb package capable of  rapid fire in close quarter combat as well as 800 yard hits. Now that's a concept we all can agree on.

It started with what some call the War Baby! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Bine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 3:25pm
I think the only Carbines you can begin to trust to be original are the 'presentation' Carbines for 8Gs and up. That is, if they remained in a family since the war... and weren't repaired... or shot much... 

...until you open it up and see a sear or hammer from another manufacturer... (*SWEAT BULLETS*... HIT THE RUTH BOOK! Check the 'integrated components' list!)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jangle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2020 at 10:33pm
A little before my Carbine buying days, but I've had old timers tell me that many carbines were purchased through NRA and DCM in the early 60's that were in unaltered WWII configuration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2020 at 8:24am
Originally posted by jangle jangle wrote:

A little before my Carbine buying days, but I've had old timers tell me that many carbines were purchased through NRA and DCM in the early 60's that were in unaltered WWII configuration.

The collector issue is do they have valid documentation? I see plenty of correct rebuilds that sellers are trying to pass off as, as issued rifles.

The cheats are really screwing up not only the carbine world but all collectables. 
David Milisock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beezer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2020 at 7:02pm
I worked with a guy that was an MP during Desert Storm.  He said the amount of looted weapons they confiscated from soldiers trying to sneak them onto their flight home was ridiculous.  He told me guys were trying to bring RPG’s home in duty bags.  I can imagine quite a few M1 Carbines coming home in similar fashion after WWII.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2020 at 12:58pm
The Gun Control Act of 1968 required that all imported firearms be clearly marked with the name of the importer.
Many carbines were imported before 1968. I am sure the vast majority of these had the "Bingback" story added as a selling point.

As pointed out many never left the continent so were never imported.

Here is the thing, A soldier that captured a weapon could get permission to take home his war trophy. A soldier could not get permission to "Take" home his weapon as it was U.S. Government property. Provisions were made to certain ranks that allowed them to buy their weapon from the government.
Any soldier that "took" U.S. property could be subject to stiff charges. It does not mean it did not happen.

Fast forward the DCM /CMP would receive carbines from the Army. The Army was not subject to import rules. A popular pastime is correcting these carbines. Some go to great lengths to find parts that match in wear and finish.
Bottom line absent paperwork: buy the carbine, not the story!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2020 at 9:41am
Complete NOS barrel assemblies are still out there even today waiting to make a rebuilt Carbine original again.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2020 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Complete NOS barrel assemblies are still out there even today waiting to make a rebuilt Carbine original again.


Did you mean "LIKE" in the 1940ies again?
I do not want to be a pain but for me, say a Carbine which went through the French Army (or what ever other Army) and had been rebuilt / updated, went through the second world war, the Indochina and Algeria war and ended up its career in the 1980ie is definitely original.
I tend to think that he same Carbine that me or any other individual would modify would not be original.

That is certainly were the problem lie: what do you think is original?
Where do the time cursor should be set to judge originality?

But maybe it is not that good to go that way as like in any collectors circles this debate must had happened endlessly with no result...

But here I think this post is definitely about the Carbine which have never been rebuilt. That must not be that many?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2020 at 8:27pm
It was a sarcastic comment. In answer to the question of how one Carbine remained original, some didn't remain original except they're being represented as original because there are NOS barrel assemblies around to fit on.
I just found a Carbine in my pile with no notes other than who transferred it for me. Color and condition is all matching. Didn't know what I was looking at for a bit until noticing the barrel wasn't even tightened on yet. It's gorgeous but obviously not orig.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricci1165 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 22 2020 at 1:16pm
My 43' IBM Bavarian is 100% factory original with no updated components. I had posted pics previously. 
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