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Help with details for data sheet

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help with details for data sheet
    Posted: Nov 18 2020 at 12:39pm
I'd could use some help with some of the details requested on the data sheet and a few of my own.
This is a Saginaw carbine. 


Front Sight
Keyway  I  ?
Key retention Chisel ?
Key Staking None ?

SG front sight attachment


Barrel Color ?
To me this looks Parkerized although worn.
It also looks to me like there may have been a type III barrel band at one time.  Yes?
If so, then the key and and front sight must have been removed and reinstalled. 
front barrel rt side


Front Barrel Left

Last question is whether the C on the sight is an ink stamp or just a mark that looks like a C?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2020 at 1:27pm
This is how I would fill out your Data Sheet



You are correct about the Type 3 barrel band shadow and the grey Parkerizing. The mark on the front sight is a stain or a ding, not a letter "C".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2020 at 5:08pm
Thanks. 

While we're looking at barrel bands.  The current one has perfect bluing which raises the question in my mind whether its new (reproduction), or old stock, possibly refinished. 
??


Bolt
On the right lug of the bolt there is an interesting mark. Is this 'hieroglyphics'? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 5:27pm
Two questions in the trigger housing group.
What is the "hammer spring recess"?
Here?




 On the 2nd sheet there is a question about the piston nut staking.
Are the two rectangular marks  the original staking?
(about 1 and 5 o'clock as the photo is oriented.)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 5:43pm
Is that an SG bolt?

the hammer spring recess is where the spring goes in, Unless you have a very early Inland TH you will have the recess.

One of out members made soem videos in small sections to assist in filling out a datasheet. They can be found in

Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance section


Direct link

the second sheet is if it is a mostly original carbine, but it is good for personal records.

As always you can ask here and will get an answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 5:49pm
Yes, I believe the two rectangular marks are the original staking. Sometimes the nut fits pretty tight and it doesn't go back in as far, thus re-staking.

Here are pics of the spring recess and hammer spring plunger.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Is that an SG bolt?

Yes. 
Understand all my answers are assuming the part markings are legit.



Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

the hammer spring recess is where the spring goes in, Unless you have a very early Inland TH you will have the recess.

Thanks! 
Thats exactly what I'm seeing but didn't see examples of anything different in the videos or the instructables page.  I also looked through Kuhnhausen.


Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

the second sheet is if it is a mostly original carbine, but it is good for personal records.

As always you can ask here and will get an answer.

Well let me ask then!
I could really use some help in getting a better idea if this is a "mostly original" carbine.
Other than the barrel band it all looks original to me.
I know the gun was purchased from Norman Ismari, a gunsmith and FFL, in 2013.
He almost certainly made the muzzle wear and headspace checks on the previous owner's data sheet.  This is non-CC data sheet from someone or organization that must deal with a fair number of M1 carbines.  I can post it if that will be of some help. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 6:12pm
Thanks JackP.
  Definately has the recess and the plunger I'll have to look at again to see if blued down the length.
I don't think it is.  Just the head that goes into the hammer recess.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 6:34pm
The bell hieroglyphic has been reported on some SG bolts.

Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Thats exactly what I'm seeing but didn't see examples of anything different in the videos or the instructables page.  I also looked through Kuhnhausen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9g6Hp7XyJM at the 5 minute mark explains the hammer pin recess. All carbines have the pin.
Basically early on they did not machine the recess. The spring would move around when trying to assemble. the fix was to make a recess to hold the spring

Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Well let me ask then!
I could really use some help in getting a better idea if this is a "mostly original" carbine.
Other than the barrel band it all looks original to me.
I know the gun was purchased from Norman Ismari, a gunsmith and FFL, in 2013.
He almost certainly made the muzzle wear and headspace checks on the previous owner's data sheet.  This is non-CC data sheet from someone or organization that must deal with a fair number of M1 carbines.  I can post it if that will be of some help. 


the club has had several variations of datasheets in out 40 plus years.
there were a few now defunct groups that had a form of a datasheet
If it has "appendix J" at the top it is from the Riesch book
Post a picture of the datasheet and it will be a good start fro us to ask for pictures for clarification.

Your barrel band is a  reproduction and it is clear it once wore a type 3 barrel band
A great many carbines have been corrected. So beyond having the correct parts there are other things to that may help to figure if original or put back together.

I am sure someone will ask to see the rear sight and the stake marks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 6:38pm
A couple things about this data sheet I was given with the carbine that are different than what I see.

The trigger housing is listed as Type III Stamped.
I don't see any evidence of stamped plates being brazed together. 

The magazine catch is listed as Type III.
I'd call it type 2 smooth.
On the CC data sheet I have it as version number 3.

I don't know if these are just mistakes (mine or theirs) or clues that parts were mixed or changed.

The other inconsistancy is the stock and hand guard.  The handguard surface is shellacked but stock is linseed oil or similar.  In my intro another member suggested that it was restocked.  I don't know if that's a definate or whether Saginaw was sometimes using Grand Rapids stocks.  But I'll throw that out here to give a fuller picture.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 6:53pm
New2brass.  Thanks.
If its unwise to put this much info up on the web, I can revise.
Simpson (the dealer I bought from) said this sheet came to them with the carbine.  By the time I saw it for sale, the price had already been lowered but best I can tell they started lower than the value estimated on the data sheet.  

Previous Owners Data Sheet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2020 at 7:09pm
That is one of the problems with al the different systems.
Larry Ruth is a long time club member and contributor. Just the same there are many items in his book credited to the club.
His system is different than what the club uses.
Fast forward, the club in keeping up with the times shifts from a newsletter to an online format.
One of the issues that caused consternation among the members was the web page use of some of the Reisch system. The reason for this is all the people out there familiar with that terminology. The downside is that the Reisch system has inadequacy  on some items, especially absent pictures.
An example is a statement "my mag catch has an M on it" Well is is underlined? Is the M serifed?
Another issue is the slide system, it misses some minutia which helps nail down items to a finer degree.
With our data sheet one can disregard the numbers and look at the picture to decide what what is correct for what they have.

Here is a link to a slide cross reference
notice there are two type 2 slides which the club has E168 or E169.
If you had a NPM slide you would be scratching your head as it is a type2/4 but in CC it would be an E368 which is not represented on that page.
Also look at the post by Sleeplessnashadow, the man that brought the web pages to life.

 We are working on pages dedicated to the more advance aspects of the carbine and filling out a data sheet.


Hope you are enjoying the carbine insanity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2020 at 9:00am
Thanks. I was trying to limit the insanity by starting with Ruth & Duff, and Ruth's Design & Production books.  So much for plan A. LOL.
I did find this thread which was very helpful with some of the page 2 questions
My receiver has the 33 degree cut and the notch for helping with bolt removal.

Ever see the cone type ejector in SG bolts?  Just wondering since the CC webspage mentions its only seen with a few manufacturers.

Rear Sight.
I don't see any staking although the sight itself has been hit.











Edited by New2brass - Nov 22 2020 at 10:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2020 at 9:33am
Your rear sight pin has the circular staking, on each side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2020 at 10:03am
Originally posted by 03manV 03manV wrote:

Your rear sight pin has the circular staking, on each side.

I agree.
I think new2brass was asking about evidence of a later sight having been removed from the dovetail cut.

There was slight shift in focus to determing how much of this carbine has been altered or changed to parts representative of a '43 build.    Knowing that will help insure my datasheet isn't misleading.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2020 at 10:17pm
For reference to the observations below.


There appears to be what some call "bash" or blunt instrument staking on the edge of the dovetail. Check and see if this mark runs under the flip. Usuallly, it doesn't. Also, check for evidence of a more recent flip installation (ie, not ~80 yeras ago).

Above and to the right of a crossed cannons stock mark is what looks like a partial cartouche (see photos). Had to tell though.

The stock nose is another place where one can find evidence of previous band usage (see photos). 

Normally, restoration folks will remove the front sight to change the band. Check under the cap on the front of your barrel. BTW, first I've seen one of those.

Curious how rough the slide and flip sight look compared to the receiver and bolt.

Remember, everything is a chance to learn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2020 at 12:49pm
It is curious about the appearance rough usage on some of the parts.   It's possible an unscrupulous person decided to give the woodwork extra character.  Particularly mysterious to me are the stippled pattern hits and cuts which would require a metal tool like a tenderizer or rasp. 



Here's another view of the possible cartouche near the comb.
I don't know what to make of it.


While we're looking at stock marks, here's a photo of the  P.



Around the muzzle on the barrel I see no marks but am sure the sight has been removed and reinstalled.  
The rubber muzzle cover or cap came with the gun.  Someplace I read that there were rubber shoot-off  caps that came into use after the canvas covers.  Unfortunately I can't find that reference now.  There are Bavarian plastic covers for sale at www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8061
But this one looks very much like the ones sold as reproduction Mauser K98 covers. 


Finally, the rear sight.  I can't see if the bash continues underneath.  Clearly the sight has been been hit with a punch on the left.  Also its sitting to the right of center; my guess is this is not a correction and the bullet's point of impact will be to the right.  That's going to have to wait untit I can take it to shoot - preferable at a place with a 50 or 100 yd range. 

Lots to learn that's for sure.
We keep coming up with more questions.

Why would the barrel and reciever have a type 1 rear sight and a evidence of a type III barrel band?
Why would the bolt have an unmodified type 1 firing pin if the carbine had any of the later updates?

And if this carbine was assembled to look correct for a '43 build, why an S'G' stamped stock instead of an SG?  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2020 at 3:51pm
"Why would the barrel and reciever have a type 1 rear sight and a evidence of a type III barrel band?
Why would the bolt have an unmodified type 1 firing pin if the carbine had any of the later updates?

And if this carbine was assembled to look correct for a '43 build, why an S'G' stamped stock instead of an SG?  "

Nothing mysterious, guys have been messing with carbines for over 70 years!

The rear sight has very likely been changed, it has been "on and off", in one of your pictures you can see bright marks where it was moved; you mentioned the punch marks your self. It is really banged up compared with the rest of the carbine.

The T3 band was also removed, as you said the front sight has been off.

No one ever changed the firing pin, or put the wrong one in the bolt when "correcting" it.

"They" did not have a SG stock , or didn't know there was a difference between S'G' and SG!

You really can never explain what you see, could have been done any time or at several different times- by several different people- some maybe even when in govt. ownership. JMHO. ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2020 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Particularly mysterious to me are the stippled pattern hits and cuts which would require a metal tool like a tenderizer or rasp. 
  


Appears like buttplate impressions in some spots.
I seen markings impressions on a stock we couldn't figure out, then it hit me one day. I stood a 15rd mag on it and the floorplate was a perfect match. Someone had been tapping their loaded mag on to the stock.
Sometimes you'll see pictures of these carbines piled in the back of trucks, looking like a game of pick up sticks. Lots of dents came from the Op slide handles to the carbine next to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 26 2020 at 8:57am
Thanks guys.  
That all makes sense.
My mistake on the firing pin.  Rereading I see that the change recommendation was Oct 11, '43  - month's after the extractor change. 

With the flip sight's broken leaf and apparent misalignment, I'll take it off and disassemble when I get a sight pusher. 

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