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H 110 powder and W 296

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Lightning330 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Feb 04 2023 at 3:30pm
Hello: I've been reloading for 5+ years now and my favorite overall for my carbines was Accurate No. 9
at 12.5 grains. I heard 12.8 would be better, but I was happy with 12.5 because it seemed to please all.
We all are aware of the shortage. No.9 was no longer available at the time. I did find Winchester 296 and ordered a pound. Understanding that it is close to Hodgdon 110. 
My questions are: H 110 starts at 14.0 grains. Should I stick with that same number for starting with W 296? Has anyone used the W 296 in the carbine? I see No.9 is available now, but I have a full pound of W 296 and hate to not at least give it a spin. I try to stay in the 1,900 fps area with the 110 grain FMJ bullet. All my shoots are 25 to 50 yards for plinking. I do like to play a little at 100 yards if my eyes are in the mood.  Input?  Thanks again to all for your input in the past. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 04 2023 at 4:13pm
I load 110 and 296 just alike and 12.7 grains of #9. #7 is a bit faster than #9 and you need to be careful with it, but it can be used. We use what we can find nowadays, but supplies are coming back…..except for ridiculously high primers. You can buy 9mm now as cheaply as you can reload it. Can’t say the same for 7.62x33.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightning330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 5:13pm
Thanks floydthecat. You mentioned loading H110 and W296 the same. But made no mention on the load that you use? 14.0 seems to be the starting point with 15.5 the max? I need to look that up again. I do like to keep my fps at around 1900 to 1950 tops. I have no Acc #7 and I'm sure I won't go there. #9 once again I'm sure after I use up this pound of W296. I won't know till I try it. Just looking for a recommended starting load beside what the book reads. In the past, I Always end up with a larger load than the starting point. Just trying to narrow it down a little. As you said, primers are still crazy high in price and just trying to conserve in that area. Any hints on a good primer source is always welcome. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 5:34pm
Not my area of knowledge but do follow many of these posts just for my curiosity.

This thread at CMP may be of use

and here's a search here for 296 by topic

also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightning330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 7:16pm
Thanks Matt for jumping in on this subject as well. The 1st link I could open and it had some awesome info. The 2nd link was expired and I could not find it otherwise. 
Looks like 14.5 will be a great starting point. Save the primers is a great goal nowadays for testing.
It was a huge step in the right direction and many thanks. I love the dance, but at 25 cents for a primer, cutting safe corners I more than welcome.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 7:43pm
I don’t compete with the 30-carbine and not much concerned with anything other than “decent” accuracy. It’s sort of a plinker for me. I usually load on the conservative side for anything I load for. 14-grains 296 tips the scales on my chrono at an average of 1840fps and the beans run fine with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightning330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 8:17pm
I'm sure few actually compete with the 30 carbine. Decent overall is my goal and always has been. 
Just a new powder untried and looking for a starting point. All answers have been very helpful and much appreciated. Earlier said: Save the primers when you can. The fun of self dialing it in has become expensive plus hard to re-supply. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 9:00pm
.30 Carbine was the first caliber I ever reloaded, beginning in 1984. I still use 13.2 grains of Win 296.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2023 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Lightning330 Lightning330 wrote:

Hello: I've been reloading for 5+ years now and my favorite overall for my carbines was Accurate No. 9
at 12.5 grains. I heard 12.8 would be better, but I was happy with 12.5 because it seemed to please all.
We all are aware of the shortage. No.9 was no longer available at the time. I did find Winchester 296 and ordered a pound. Understanding that it is close to Hodgdon 110. 
My questions are: H 110 starts at 14.0 grains. Should I stick with that same number for starting with W 296? Has anyone used the W 296 in the carbine? I see No.9 is available now, but I have a full pound of W 296 and hate to not at least give it a spin. I try to stay in the 1,900 fps area with the 110 grain FMJ bullet. All my shoots are 25 to 50 yards for plinking. I do like to play a little at 100 yards if my eyes are in the mood.  Input?  Thanks again to all for your input in the past. 

 H110 and W296 are one and the same and data is 100% interchangeable. My goal is to load .30 Carbine that duplicates the ballistics of the original load so I can regulate my sights such that they' work with any load running a 110 gr. FMJ 1990 fps +/- a couple dozen fps. I have steel target on my 100 and 200 yd. range and it's quite gratifying to be able to hit consistently at those ranges. To that end, I load 15.0 gr. of H110/W296 and get the velocity I want. I'm betting 14.0 gr. will get you around 1900 fps.

  The last few months I've been using Accurate 4100/Ramshot Enforcer (same powder) as both are generally available. 14.8 grs. and a 110 gr. Hornady consistently yields right at 2000 fps, while loading a 110 gr. Armscor drops the velocity to around 1970, depending on the primer. I like these powders so well that  I'll probably stop using H110/W296.

 Speaking of primers, this weekend I tested a couple of loads with W296 and Ramshot Enforcer with several different primers including small pistol, small pistol magnum, small rifle and small rifle magnum. My goal was to see if one type primer gave markedly different results than another. If you're interested, here's the link- .30 Carbine Primer Tests and Comparisons - AR15.COM

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 5:52am
Nothing scientific about it, but just judging from the feel and ejection patterns, some magnum primers do perform a little better for me in some calibers. Not a secret that I hobby-around with caliber conversions. The 30 caliber does not seem to mind that much, as supported by posted chrono data. I have a 9mm that is very sensitive to both the charge, bullet weight and the primer used. I like to discover the weakest load that a particular carbine will cycle. I have discovered the magnum primers do add some energy over standard pistol primers in terms of what the gun will cycle. The 30 caliber seems to run well across a fairly broad range of loadings with about any primer. The 9mm is more sensitive to primer types. Maybe pressure curves are altered a bit using different primers. Some loads I shoot in that particular carbine won’t cycle with a standard CCI 500 pistol primer, but runs on a CCI 550 and small rifle primers. I think magnum primers do add something, maybe not enough to make a big difference on the chrono, but will show up on marginal loads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 10:29am
I've rebuilt many shooters and have 2 myself a Quality Hardware 43 with a Buffalo barrel and an Inland 42 I believe, with an Inland barrel. All springs replaced, extra power Wolf recoil spring, new rebuilt bolts.

I'm using Hodgen LilGun at 15 1/2 grain as maximum with CCI small rifle, magnum primers my experience has been that cold weather ignition and cycling is improved. It's a bit slower, burns a tad cleaner and cooler.

During my last load development with my current lot of LilGun powder I used factory Federal FMJ 110 grain as my base control. They clocked 1920 at 10 feet over my Caldwell chronograph, ejection was positive, 3 to 4 feet between 1 and 2 o'clock looking over the muzzle. I found that 3 out of 5 cases from Federal showed catered primersand ejector marks leading me to consider that peak pressure was near maximum.

I took loads of LilGun starting at 13 grain to 16 1/2 grains in half grain increments with me. Again clocking at 10 feet, the 13 grain load produced 1910 FPS average with zero pressure signs but weak extraction. The velocity increased with zero pressure signs and proper extraction up to and including 15 1/2 grains. At that time velocity was 2260 FPS, zero pressure signs, primers were a bit more flattened and extraction was positive, 3 to 4 feet between 1 and 2 o'clock.

At 16 grains there was no increase in velocity but now 2 out of 5 primers showed catering and 3 cases had ejector marks.

These are working rifles and I have zero consideration for longevity, I have plenty of parts and will rebuild as required. I also do not participate in competitions with them so round count will be low. These are PDW, truck and farm rifles and the magnum primers, modern powders safely produce a significant improvement in cold weather performance as well as a nearlm300 foot pound increase of on target energy.  That's nearly 65%over the factory Federal ammunition. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 12:53pm
Hey Lightning333
Yeah H110 and W296 burn rates are identical.
Below are the results of my testing w/ H110 w/ CCL primers on my CHRONY:

14.0gr-----1,863f/s average
14.5gr-----1,943f/s average
15.0gr-----1.968f/s average

Off the shelf Ballot & Sellier 110gr FMJ consistently at 2,100f/s average.  A bit hot but acceptable.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 1:51pm
Did you see any pressure signs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

Off the shelf Ballot & Sellier 110gr FMJ consistently at 2,100f/s average.  A bit hot but acceptable.

Other S&B calibers I shoot run warm also. It’s good stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightning330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 3:47pm
Wow! This is all so cool and interesting. Thanks to all of you for chiming in. All the info on primers is informative as well. I have been using Rem 6 1/2 and CCI 400 which both seem equal, but I'm not fine tuned in my head enough to really tell a difference. Range time is limited and surrounded by a reservation makes taking a fun road trip and plinking in the wide open spaces a little in the gray area. 
The 13.2 grains of W296 from David Albert is interesting with him using that load for so many years. Bigger is not always better, but that does sound on the light side. I'm sure I will load a few myself just to check it out. Also impressed with 35 Whelen's ability to ring a steel plate at 200 yards with 15.0 grains of W296. Heck, I can't even see that far. Unhappy Looking forward to hearing more. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 4:44pm

Did you see any pressure signs?
Nope
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightning330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 5:18pm
Just briefly back to Floyd's mention of S&B shelf ammo. Before I started reloading I of course used several brands of shelf. I agree S&B was a little hot for my taste but effective and I always saved the brass. With my pick of all, it boiled down to PPU. Just my opinion is all, but I liked it and my 3 carbines did as well, and also liked the brass for reloads. I have heard that PPU is not available anymore due to? 
Is this true, or just media talk? Ha - stirring the pot!

 


Edited by W5USMC - Feb 06 2023 at 10:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 6:23pm
Reflecting back on pressure signs relating to the Sellier & Bellot cartridge:
There was noticeable flattening of the primer  but no cratering of the firing pin point of impact and no discoloration relating to powder blow back or extractor marks.
I bought the S & B for the brass casings to reload. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 9:48pm
I sure hope that's just a rumor and not true about the PPU because that's basically all I run through my carbine and maybe a little bit of Remington every now and then but my M1 garand only uses PPU. That's all I have ever shot through my garand because it's great ammo and my thought on it was I needed to look no further.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2023 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Lightning330 Lightning330 wrote:

Also impressed with 35 Whelen's ability to ring a steel plate at 200 yards with 15.0 grains of W296. Heck, I can't even see that far. Unhappy Looking forward to hearing more. 


 The key to shooting well with open sights (aside from the principles of shooting) is to have a target that works well with the sights. Trying to see a black post or Patridge front sight such as these against a black target is difficult, at best. My 100 yd. target is a 12" diameter piece of AR500 that I keep painted white.



The dark front sight of an M1 Carbine provides great contrast and makes it easy to repeat the sight picture.  

 My 200 yd. target is a piece of 24" AR500. It too is painted white, only it has a roughly 12" black center with a roughly 4" white center. My almost 60 year old eyes can just make out the 4" white center, and when the white "splotch" almost disappears behind the front sight I know elevation is good.

 

 This target works very well, even better than the 100 yd. target.

  If I can do it, anyone can!

 Regarding PPU ammunition, I believe it's still available, but not in .30 Carbine, at the moment.
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