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USS Hornet Armory Log Book

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jangle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jangle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: USS Hornet Armory Log Book
    Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 11:10am
Pardon me if this is known information, or has been posted before.

On the US Militaria Forum's Website, member TorpedoSquadron11 posted photos of the USS Hornet (CVA-12), Armory Log Book dated 15 June 1957.  It list all small arms in it's inventory.

Of interest to we Carbine enthusiast, is a serial number list of 92 M1 Carbines.  If I counted correctly, there is:
68-Winchester
15-IBM
8  -Inland
1  -Underwood

Now, look through your serial numbers to see if any came from the Hornet!




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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 7:10pm
Excellent!

Jack P, more numbers to add to the spreadsheets!

Now lets see if anyone has one of these serial numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 7:30pm
Got it Dan! Jangle, can you PM me a link to the specific post in the US Militaria website that I can reference in the Spreadsheets?

Edited by jackp1028 - Feb 15 2023 at 7:53pm
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 7:44pm
Hmm, need to spreadsheet these and post in order. Lots of serial numbers in close range!
Kind of odd for 1957, unless the were left over from WW2 or maybe they were supplied with some that were still new in the case.
Further, it states M1 and not M2. A great many were converted after the war, but probably not needed on ships?

Some of the NRA sales and CMP white bags were labeled as serviceable. This was because they were never  upgraded with bayonet lugs or other upgrades. I believe these came off ships where a bayo lug was not needed.
There may be a good possibility that one of these shows up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jangle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 9:51pm
Jack,
PM sent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 9:51pm
Very cool. Looks like M.R.’s collection with all them WRA’s haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2023 at 10:42pm
Thanks for sharing this.  I saw that post on USMilitaria  last night and was thinking club members might like to see it.  Then forgot about it.
Its pretty interesting that many shipped from Winchester at the same time frame / batch.

A question that was raised in the thread, and maybe answered by now, was whether this list was for the ship's marines, navy, or both. 

It seems one could go into a whole area of study regarding supply logistics.  Some decisions seem well documented and reasonably well known, eg. initial USMC M1 rifle distribution, or 'Victory' revolvers.  But most are not. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSNPingjockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 8:20am
Hope I have my serial number analysis correct and, if do, this is kind of interesting:

Of the 15 IBM serial number range listed, 7 of them fall into the "AO" subcontracted receiver serial number range:
3841371
3867701
3867800
3880549
3887785
3900251
3901373

3909009 is a close maybe, but I have that the highest ever seen for IBM "AO" has been 3907689

Of the 68 Winchester serial number range listed, 3 of them fall into the "AW" Underwood line-out serial number range:
6462284
6466215
6467460

Interestingly, in my little spreadsheet, I have down that the sequential serial number of 6466214 (6466215 was on the Hornet) was either sold by CMP at a prior semi-recent CMP auction or was mentioned as being owned by a member in the CMP Forum and is out there somewhere today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 8:46am
How neat! I don't think I've seen very many of these itemized lists and almost all of the carbines are from the same time period. Also, if you think of percentages of production, one should expect way more Inland carbines than the others, but very little in military procurement scenarions makes a lot of sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 12:23pm
I find it interesting that two of the Inlands were early 5 digit serial numbers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SSNPingjockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 1:40pm
You can see through the bleed-through on the paper that the .45 (1911) serial numbers were typed on the backside of that page.  I bet 1911 collectors would love to see that data.

Although, just because a 1911 was on that ship in 1957 would not necessarily mean that specific 1911 was originally delivered to the Navy in WWI or WWII era, but would still be able to associate as being a firearm on that ship at one time.

It makes we wonder if other ships that are now museums may also have an armory log laying around in the artifact collection on-site?  Hmmm.

I spent time on 4 different submarines.  In the 1980s and early 1990s, we still had nothing but 1911s in our small arms locker and that is what we carried on various security watches.  We finally got Beretta 9mm's in the mid-1990's.  Of course, all of our 1911s were WWI and WWII period manufacture (none were made after WWII for the military).  All were parkerized.  All had been who knows where and were rebuilt many times.  Some were nice and tight and some rattled like heck when you shook them, they were so worn.  Likely, many probably started out in the Army and eventually made it to the Navy.

As far as all of those small arms being for the Navy crew or Marines, based my experience, they were all likely for the Navy crew.  Besides actually using a minimal amount of small arms to carry for various security watches while in port (usually a pistol and/or a shotgun), the greater number exists to defend the ship and "repel borders", whether in port or at sea.  On a submarine, we had quite a large number of handguns (20 or so), approximately 12-15 rifles, approximately 5 - 12 gauge pump shotguns, and after 911, an M-60 machine gun that could be mounted in the Bridge.

To defend something the size of an aircraft carrier, it would take a lot of armed sailors.  When Marines were onboard, they usually brought their own gear/weapons and were only security forces on aircraft carriers when carriers had tactical nuclear weapons onboard.  The Marines were there for one purpose...guard nuclear weapons.  When the tactical nuclear weapons left based on a treaty with Russia in about 1991/1992, the Marines were no longer present as security forces on carriers.  I know the 1980s were not 1957 and things change, but pretty confident those weapons were for ship's company.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 2:37pm
Thank you for the primer on Marines vs Navy crew weapons distribution.

My neighbor was on the USS Newport News 1967-8.  My impression was that shore party for observation and fire support were mix of Navy and Marines.  He carried an M14 which I beleive was standard until the end or close to the end of his tour. 

1911 log pages added.
Here's the thread.  It's in a public section of the forum so you shouldn't need to be a member to view it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SSNPingjockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 3:05pm
Oh...that's awesome...the serial numbers of all of the other weapons.  That is an awful lot of Garands.  Wow!

I may have to stand corrected on that prior thought/statement.  It may be a combination of regular/standard ship crew compliment weapons and Marine use weapons.  It is an awful lot, even for a carrier.

But, even without Marines, the standard ships crew for a carrier was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500 - 3,000.  Then, when the aircraft squadrons were onboard, add another 1,500 people.  Back in those days, they probably had 4,500+ people on there on deployment.  Now days, on deployment, the carriers have around 5,000+ people.

Thanks so much for sharing that!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SSNPingjockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 3:27pm
It's funny...when you said "Newport News", I immediately thought of the submarine, then I saw the dates...1967/1968...definitely not the submarine (SSN-750).  The cruiser Newport News (CA-148).  I would imagine they would have quite the armory as well.

You mentioned the M-14s.  

During most of my time in the Navy, the older Sturgeon 637 class submarines (built late 1960s to mid 1970s) were the only "punch through the ice" capable subs and the 637 class subs carried nothing but M-14s for rifles.

The newer Los Angeles 688 class subs all carried M-16s and were not ice capable (although in later years, some of the the newest ones were made ice worthy with bow planes and reinforced sails). 

I was always told that the 637s (arctic/ice capable boats) carried M-14s because if a polar bear was encountered as a threat after surfacing through the ice, the M-14 would/could slow/put it down and it would just laugh at a 5.56 of the M-16.  No idea whether that was fact or lore, but it made sense.  No other idea why 637s as a platform would have M-14s through the 1990s while 688s had M-16s.

I always figured that the odds of seeing a polar bear after punching through the arctic ice was slim and none....until I went to the North Pole in 1992.  We surfaced through the ice 13 times on that trip and...low and behold...saw a polar bear on the 1st punch through.  It never came closer than about 1,000 yards to us and was not very interested in us at all.  So, there went the odds of slim and none.

Sure liked shooting the M-14, but don't think I'd like to carry it in combat.  Guess the difference in carrying an M-14 and M-16 is akin to why GIs loved carrying an M1 Carbine instead of an M1 Garand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2023 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by SSNPingjockey SSNPingjockey wrote:

 When the tactical nuclear weapons left based on a treaty with Russia in about 1991/1992, the Marines were no longer present as security forces on carriers.  I know the 1980s were not 1957 and things change, but pretty confident those weapons were for ship's company.

The Marine Detachments that were assigned to Navy Ships like Carriers, Cruisers and Battleships, were actually part of the Ships Company and were not considered embarked Marines like on Amphibs.  In addition to security for nukes, they provided security for the Captain, operated the brig and provided additional overall security for the ship and did ceremonial crap. Think it would be very likely that these listed carbines could have been for them. 
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