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Arsenal marking during WW2

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pchanu View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 5:51am
hi everyone!

Until now, I never thought about that, as it was so clear it could not happen. All I have read about in books and websites was always going the same way: the Arsenal markings(ie: AAL and P squared)were placed during the postwar program. I have never heard of any Carbine used in the ETO with that kind of stock marking.


But here I come with a French seller of a superb M1A1, s/n 2225xx looking really great, exactly like it was supposed to be, wooden and metallic parts, BUT with this AAL on the side + P squared on the grip(front)… He assures it is an original WW2 era weapon, coming out of a « grenier » (lucky we are, it still happens!). He explains it was « repaired » during the war, and so came to France, then, with these markings before the end of the war…

But as far as I know, these were not made during WW2. So did I miss something about that? 
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 9:02am
Welcome to the forums.
It is a nice story, but many will tell you: Don't buy the story, buy the carbine!

Did you read our web page on the overhauls?

Does the carbine have an adjustable sight?
Does it have a bayonet lug?

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pchanu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pchanu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 5:07pm
 thanks Dan(and also thanks for all your huge work on these carbines!!)

So… No, there is no adjustable sight nor bayonet lug. No upgrade at all on the weapon that I can see on the pictures(can’t check inside parts), there is just this AAL+P stock markings, like if a marked as refurbish stock was put along with a (fully?) 1943 original mechanic. That was my first feeling when I saw the Carbine.

I have of course read the page about the overhauls, and also went through the books I have: the 3 War Babies, Harrison’s, Larson’s and Riesch’s! And I can’t find anything that would indicate Arsenals were marking stocks during WW2 when servicing them. Larry Ruth’s book is big, so I might have missed that kind of information?

Another guy on the french site where it is for sale says the Arsenal had offices in Europe that were doing that, servicing and then marking. As I can easily understand of course that weapons need to be serviced in the ETO, I think it would have been noticed by you, the CC, if any special marking was then applied. And then reported on your website and on the different books.

Until now, I had understood that these markings were only following post-war upgrade/rebuild, not in-war maintenance. The seller and this other guy say it was done during the war, by arsenal units in Europe. 

So, these markings, can we say for sure when, where, how they started to be made? 


Thanks for any answer!

Patrick


(A few pictures, by the way…)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 5:36pm
Has the stock been cut down to low wood on the right side? 
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pchanu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pchanu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 5:44pm
nope, still high wood

More pictures













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Smokpole View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 6:46pm
There were arsenals in Europe that rebuilt carbines, BUT they were all post WWII and as far as I know, they were told NOT to mark they carbines with a rebuilder's stamp.
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GotSnlB28 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 7:25pm
Neat milling marks on the early trigger housing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Neat milling marks on the early trigger housing.

Agree those milling marks are pretty cool looking!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2021 at 8:20pm
OK, I see where I made a error, the serial is a 6 digit and it is an Inland, with all inland parts.

As best I can find August Arsenal started post war rebuilds in late 1945 (Nov?) and they closed the doors in 1955.

Some food for thought, The war in Europe effectively ended in May 1945. We had left carbines in occupied zones such as Germany and Austria. When these were returned to the US Army we found some true time capsules as there were many in original configuration.
 
As to sending them home for a rebuild, it would be unlikely that they went back to Europe as the focus was in the Pacific. And as suggested above, there were plenty of carbines in Europe.

There are stories of ships returning home where they offloaded all the weapons overboard. I guess 6 million carbines was too much to handle (as well as the other arms)

If it did go Augusta they would have stripped it down with all the others and parts would be cleaned, inspected and gauged. Parts passing inspection would be lumped together and then carbines would be assembled with no regard to parts marking.
Obsolete parts like that dogleg hammer would have been replaced.

I think what you may have is an un-messed with early Inland that was dropped in a M1a1 stock that has been through a rebuild. Look at the nose of the stock, you may find evidence of it wearing a wide barrel band (T2, T3)

As to foreign rebuild programs, we know of FN doing rebuilds. As stated no overseas depot was to mark them. There are pictures of of the FN rebuild program with stacks of M1a1 stocks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pchanu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 04 2021 at 2:20am
ok thanks for all this. 
So it confirms my first feeling about this Carbine, and that these stamps were only made through the post-war rebuild program, definitely cannot be just a WW2 repair made in Europe by an AA antenna and stamped by them. 

My guess is the same as yours Dan, occupation troups sent after 1945 to France brought that stock back there and an early Inland part was dropped in.


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