Winchester or High Standard Prototype Carbine?

A friend of a friend visited the Wehrtechnisches Museum in Koblenz, Germany in 2010, and I had some photos forwarded to me today from that museum that prompt some interesting Carbine related questions.

In Larry Ruth's "War Baby," he shows a rifle that is described as a High Standard Prototype Carbine that was initially entered into the Carbine trials. This same rifle is in Germany, labeled as a Winchester prototype. That's the mystery, in a nutshell. Which one is correct?

Photo from "War Baby:"



Prototype Carbine in German Museum:




The friend was surprised that a U.S. prototype rifle would be overseas, but that's not really surprising to me. Prototype firearms are owned by many private collectors, and could be traded, including to overseas destinations. I own two prototype rifles myself, one of which was the main rifle used to evaluate adoption of it by by the USMC during WWII. I have seen many others in private hands.

I have some literature from the Aberdeen Proving Ground Carbine Trials which indicate that High Standard was sent a flyer about the trials, but it does not mention that High Standard made a submission. Larry Ruth indicates that High Standard submitted the rifle in the photos, but when the caliber requirements were changed, they did not follow-up.

Has this been covered anywhere previously? I see some similarities between the rifle in the German museum, and the final Winchester prototype. Could this really be a Winchester prototype, and not a High Standard? I'm curious what folks here think about it.

Thanks!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

David,

The info and photos regarding the Hi-Standard prototype are in the Aberdeen archives collection that has since been moved to Ft. Lee, VA. Larry found them at Aberdeen back in the 80's.














That Bundeswehr Museum appears to have the Bundeswehr collection of firearms used as reference material for designing new firearms. The German equivalent to the research facility formerly at Enfield that is currently part of The Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, UK.

The Royal Armouries Museum has Inland s/n XB74. A .30 cal. prototype the Enfield curator acquired back during his tenure.

I suspect a curator or purchasing agent for the Bundeswehr acquired the High Standard prototype sometime after WWII for use as reference material. The Bundeswehr was provided with U.S. .30 cal. carbines by the U.S. Military Assistance Program when the they were formed in 1955. After the end of the occupation.

Jim

P.S. The Bundeswehr Museum in Koblenz also has this carbine ...



The scope is a Phillips IR scope developed in the 50's in the Netherlands. Versions were provided to FN in Belgium and the German Bundeswehr for evaluation.

Larry states that, "It appears that the High Standard gas-operated carbine shown in fig. 51 had also been fitted with a trigger group taken from one or other of the Winchester self-loading rifle series."

I purchased a Winchester M1907 SLR (which I think I later sold to New2Brass) for the purpose of learning and photos for comparison to the 1st Winchester Light Rifle prototype. One of the pics is on the web page devoted to this prototype (link below pic).


Winchester's 1st Light Rifle Prototype

Comparing my pics of the 1907 Winchester with those of the High Standard prototype shown in 67359 and 67361 (above) it's pretty clear the Winchester 1907 and High Standard trigger groups are not similar.

However, read the entire quote ..

War Baby III page 875

"Taking a leaf from the Winchester "thirteen-day carbine project, it appears that the High Standard gas-operated carbine shown in fig. 51 had also been fitted with a trigger group taken from one or other of the Winchester self-loading rifle series.


"it appears" appears to have been an error in visual comparison (use your magnifying glass, Larry). Also an error by not comparing whatever leaf from that project to Ordnance pics 67359 and 67361.

In the photos that sleeplessnashadow posted, it is even strange that the trigger group appears different between photo 67359 and 67361, with an additional feature just forward of the trigger guard in photo 67359.

I think what you are referring to is shown assembled to the front of the trigger guard in 67359 and shown disassembled in 67361.

Jim