Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
|
I.B.M. Sight |
Post Reply 
|
| Author | |
lancer114 
Recruit 
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: I.B.M. SightPosted: Jan 27 2021 at 5:12pm |
|
I recently got a late production I.B.M. If my math is right the serial #3947347, indicates April '44 manufacture.
I've detail stripped it and all the markings and finish show original configuration. My question concerns the rear sight. It's a type II with the ordnance stamp on the left side and no other marking. Is this correct for this gun?
  |
|
 |
|
|
carbinekid
On Point 
Joined: Jan 24 2016 Location: SE Michigan Status: Offline Points: 438 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 5:28pm |
|
I think usually sights marked like that in the left would be SA marked on the right side.
|
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 5:35pm |
|
That's what I've read, but this one doesn't. I wonder who made this one?
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group 
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 8:19pm |
|
Can you post a picture of the rear and the top of the sight with the windage moved to each side. The stake markings will tell a lot Best, Dan |
|
|
|
|
Smokpole
Hard Corps 
Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1057 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 9:27pm |
|
I was thinking SA too.
|
|
|
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 28 2021 at 4:25pm |
|
Sorry I'm late getting back to this post. I hate when life gets in the way of my hobby!
Anyhow, here are pictures if the staking. The left side was difficult to depict clearly, but there are chisel stakes front and rear.
  |
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 28 2021 at 7:00pm |
|
Yea, that is a SA rear sight. That is not the first sight on that carbine
|
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 29 2021 at 11:04am |
|
Thanks for the info.
What would have been the original sight on this gun? I ask out of curiosity since I'm going to leave the current sight alone.
|
|
|
|
|
SSNPingjockey
On Point
Joined: Mar 07 2020 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 29 2021 at 11:25am |
|
In that serial number range, it most likely would have been manufactured with an adjustable sight (either milled or stamped), but would not have been an SA. The SA rear adjustable sights were post-war (well, post-WWII). They were made during Korean war era.
|
|
|
Chad
USN Retired |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 29 2021 at 12:11pm |
|
I read that the type III sights were not yet made in early '44. It makes me wonder why one type II sight was replaced by another. Possibly the original sight was damaged. As far as I can tell it's the only part on the gun that's not original.
|
|
|
|
|
SSNPingjockey
On Point
Joined: Mar 07 2020 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 29 2021 at 12:45pm |
|
Gosh...who knows.
Can you tell if it ever went through rebuild anywhere? Does it have a bayonet lug? Could have been changed out when still in service by an armorer because something was not right with the original sight OR it could have been changed out by a prior owner just because they liked that awesome SA ordnance wheel stamp on it. I don't know much about and have not seen a lot of SA stuff, but the few SA rear sights that I have seen have the "SA" stamp on the right side. I personally have never seen that ordnance wheel stamp on the left side, but definitely looks SA to me. Kind of cool!
|
|
|
Chad
USN Retired |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 29 2021 at 1:03pm |
|
No, never been through a rebuild. All parts, except the sight, are original and with the original finish, so no bayonet lug.
I'm working on a data sheet and photographs. At the moment taking care of the surface rust the previous owner allowed to happen is occupying my time.
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 30 2021 at 12:04pm |
|
In your serial range you could have had a flip sight or a adjustable rear sight. Looking at the front right staking there appears to be a flat staking further right suggesting a flip sight. Also look closely at the front left there appears to also be evidence of flip sight staking. Adjustable rear sights were approved in February 1943 and we start seeing them on some carbines in April 44. Modified Work Order B28-W3 was published in Sep 44 on replacement of rear sights with parts available in Oct 1944. Rear sights were replace in the field. Don Hillhouse has written several articles of reports of rear sight replacement during the war. His latest article has the earliest reports found to date of rear sights replaced in the ETO. The question being if Springfield Armory produced any replacement rear sights during the war? We know that SA produced the T3 barrel bands and some were reported on late Winchester carbines. There are some other SA parts which may have been for replacement or rebuild. SA also subcontracted some parts We also know there are Hemphill rear sights that evidently were sent to SA, and why I wanted to confirm yours was made by SA and not a Hemphill. So being SA and absent information if they produced any rear sights during the war it is impossible to determine when and where. If your carbine is truly original except the rear sight then it is a great part of its history. |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 30 2021 at 5:58pm |
|
One reason I think the sight installed by IBM was adjustable is that the makers name as well as the serial number is completely visible behind the rear sight overhang. If the original was a flip sight at least part of those markings would be obscured, at least on every one I've seen.
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 30 2021 at 7:37pm |
|
Not necessarily true, First I am not sure IBM moved the name back. If they did it has still been observed in your serial range that both flip and adjustable left the factory. They were using what they had left. the stake markings tell the story, Lets see what others have to say.
|
|
|
|
|
m1a1fan
Hard Corps
Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 30 2021 at 9:20pm |
|
The rear sight staking shows multiple signs of previous flip sight staking. Check the dove tail corners for chisel marks. I’ve viewed a few late IBM carbines with flip sights. Haven’t seen many non flip sight original IBM’s, but I’m sure they are in the newsletters or on the net. Checking for previous staking can be difficult when it may be obscured by an adjustable rear sight.
As mentioned by others previously... the staking and rear sight marking tells the story. Curious about the rest of the story. Barrel maker? Barrel P mark? Barrel band type? Markings?
Bolt type and finish? Stock sling well markings? Any other markings on the stock? |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 11:11am |
|
I was going to wait and clean these up before posting but the Data Sheets will answer the questions.
So it seems the consensus is that the gun had a flip sight installed at the factory and at some point later a type II sight was installed as an upgrade.
  |
|
|
|
|
ncin1911
On Point
Joined: Dec 13 2018 Location: Hoosier State Status: Offline Points: 435 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 12:05pm |
|
fwiw IBM adjustable sight staking examples; right side front & back only. 3935xxx  3949xxx  3953xxx  |
|
|
|
|
lancer114
Recruit
Joined: Jan 27 2021 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Jan 31 2021 at 1:29pm |
|
Thanks for posting the pictures. Doesn't at all look like mine, but at least I'll know what to look for in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options