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Flip Sight Leaf Bottom Detail

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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Flip Sight Leaf Bottom Detail
    Posted: Nov 25 2020 at 10:09pm
We've been looking at differences in the size and angle of the upper 'Ledge' where it meets the Upright Sight Blades.

But now looking for information or better yet drawings of the base of the flip sight leaf, where it rotates over the spring. I have more real GI flips here I could take apart but I fear the Wrath of Marcus, who threatened cutting my fingers off if I dare do it again.

I need to find out if Anyone knows if there is a parts drawing or schematic out there that shows the bottom design/detail on a Flip leaf?

Years ago I took a flip sight apart to replace a spring nearly rusted in half that had lost tension.
I had purchased a repro from Nick Daley (sp?) just to rob the spring. This was before you could locate nos springs being offered from the wrap. Years went by without ever getting back to it and I'd mixed up the 2 Flip leafs in with other stripped flip bases and flip leafs. I posted a picture of them back IIRC in 09 and was told which was thought to be the original. I still haven't put it back together. But now curious if the WWII made leafs ALL had the 5 sided bottom detail or 4 sided. I'll try posting the pictures to show you.
After Thanksgiving I'll pull a few carbines out and see if I can tell by feel how many notches or corners I can feel while moving the Leaf back and forth. I tried that last night on a WSI marked leaf/Inland Flip but couldn't tell vs the spring tension.

Left One #1- 5 Sided         Right One  #2- 4 Sided



Below Is Left #1, 5 side:



Below is Right #2, 4 Side:



Found this marking after wire brushing out the crud.
Note to all, try your best to get a pipe cleaner under the spring, it's surprising how much crud gathers under them:



The Base with The .U. Inside is The Left One Below.
I was told $10 Each From a Dealer at a Local Gun Show After Digging Them Out Of His Junk Parts Boxes. After seeing how grimey my hands were he charged me $25. As I walked away, I heard a pppfff kinda sound from him while shaking his head saying "Carbine Guys" Ermm



Thanks,

Charlie-P777
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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 25 2020 at 11:02pm
This snip is from a layout drawing of a M2 that is the closest thing to an original drawing of a flip sight I have been able to find.




You can find the whole drawing here:

https://abload.de/image.php?img=longitudinalsectiondruyjo8.jpg

It appears to have the title block info redacted but I believe it to be an original Ordnance Department drawing.

It does look more like the four sided example that you show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 25 2020 at 11:14pm
JP,
I had looked in the May 42 FM23-7 but it doesn't show the detail.
Some in it never happened like the Hammer Block.


I sure appreciate your help. Was hoping you'd chime in.
I'll look your info over closer in the morning.
Been a long one here.

I have a few things to add to stir the pot, but later.

Thank You,
Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 25 2020 at 11:42pm
Charlie, If you are able to find a legible copy of TB-23-7-1 there is an exploded view of the rear sight on page 31, Fig. 14. You may be able to see the detail of the leaf there. My copy is a nearly unreadable PDF file.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 26 2020 at 1:48pm
TB-23-7-1 was published in march of 1942 before any carbines were delivered.
As you all know things may have changed once things were up and in production.
Also consider different manufactures and what capabilities they had to produce certain items.
Consider the differences in the trigger housings.

With that said it seems that the #1 on left would easily stop between both positions. There is also less material for the spring to lock in on either sighting position.

Best bet would be to have a few people take a look at original flip sights to see if there is any variations that can be seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 26 2020 at 2:25pm
Dan, Charlie, The leaf with the 5 sided feature would be more difficult to fabricate (more machining operations), would likely wear faster (less surface area) and would only offer an additional "in-between" position which seems unnecessary to me. If I were making flips, I would use the simpler 4 sided design. Perhaps the 4 sided flip is the result of a cost reduction effort prior to the introduction of the adjustable windage designs.

I've sent an email to Eric Nicolaus to see if he is aware if any original drawings exist of the flip sight components.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 26 2020 at 3:01pm
legible copy of TB-23-7-1 there is an exploded view of the rear sight on page 31,

I forgot about having the CMP reprints.
And also came across this post with a scanned picture below, which I magnified way up. About 1/2 way down:
Tank Destroyer School


I can't see enough detail in either of the above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 27 2020 at 12:45pm
Here's a link to the M1 Carbine Base Shop Data No. 1 and 2 publication dated Sept. 1942.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/M1A1%20Carbine%20Base%20Shop%20Data.pdf

It's the earliest technical bulletin or manual for the M1 Carbine that I have been able to find. Note the assembly and disassembly instruction for the rear sight. The illustration looks more like the 4 sided version of the leaf although there's not much detail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 27 2020 at 2:28pm
The 4 sided or the one with 4 machined flat sides has a rounded profile between the two flats. This would be a operation to round. Like I said, different manufactures did things different ways to achieve the same part.

Checking flip sights I found that a few were easier than others to balance between positions.
One on a Standard Products has a noticeable flat and easily stands between the positions.

Then I have one sight that I have been told is one of the better reproductions that also has a flat and can easily be positioned in between settings.

YMMV
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 28 2020 at 12:52pm
Eric Nicolaus does not have the four prints that make up the Leaf Rear Sight.

Leaf – B200977
Base – B200979
Pin – A196444
Spring – A196443

Whenever the Picatinny Arsenal civilians are permitted to go back to work he will put in a request for same.

He said he has two other requests – at least 6 months old – still pending.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 06 2023 at 3:17pm
Here's a loose one; rounded, not chamfered.  Don't know its provinance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 05 2023 at 10:16pm
Here's another one:
I'm hot linking because I don't think I have much storage space remaining.


more here
https://imgur.com/a/AXmLdxS

Original CMP post
https://b34da70920f9-006155.vbulletin.net/forum/cmp-sales/m1-carbine/3451926-m1-carbine-flip-sight-aperture

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