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Proper lubrication

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pschuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pschuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proper lubrication
    Posted: Oct 01 2020 at 7:46pm
This is my first post in the discussion forum.

I have a Universal carbine from the '60's.   It is in very good condition and likely was fired very few times prior to the approximate 100 rounds I fired myself. 

The very thin owner's manual does not cover anything at all about where to lubricate and what to use for a lubricant. I did a search on the word lubrication in the forum and could not find much on the subject.    I am probably using the wrong terminology.  

When I pull the bolt back without a mag installed and allow it to slowly return as if it is picking up a cartridge from the mag, it doesn't close smoothly and can actually remain only about half way closed.   
If I pull the bolt back and let it slam closed (again no mag), it will close and the lugs engage OK.  

I believe the bolt requires lubrication at the correct friction points.      

Would some one please explain what to lubricate and what lubricant should be used.    

Also, how far down to I have to tear down to do the lubrication?   To get at the bolt I have to use a drift pin to drive out a pin and I have so far not worked-up the courage to do that yetSmile

One last question: how free should the gas piston be?   Should I be able to move it with my fingers?   

Thanks for any information!

Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 68coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 01 2020 at 9:31pm
Pete,

I'll start at the beginning.
1. Lubrication is a good and valid term. Most folks say "oiled", which is somewhat inaccurate. In Garand circles, they say, "If it slides, it gets grease. If it rotates, it gets oil". Much more accurate, in my book. Both my Universal & GI carbines like being well lubed. Just be careful to keep grease & gunk build-up out of the chamber/bore.

2. There is at least 1 You Tube video & several still photo guides on field stripping a Universal Carbine. Depending on whether you have 1 recoil spring or 2, procedure slightly varies. As to getting to the bolt, after removing the barrel band and removing the action, all you need to remove is the trigger housing, which is pretty straightforward. Remove the pin at the front, holding it to the receiver. You may have to drift it out at first, but repetition and lubrication, it should come out without a hammer. From the rear position, the slide should be able to be worked off of the bolt lug with little effort. Then move the slide forward as much as possible. The bolt moves forward to a "notch" in the receiver, allowing it to be rotated and removed from its rails. You will have to rotate it back to center to clear the firing pin and get the bolt completely out. There is a "bolt assembly/disassembly tool" that makes it MUCH easier to do, though it CAN be done by hand. Just do it carefully, as the TINY springs can & will go flying to places unknown.

3. Lubricants: Everyone uses something different to their liking, but I use a lithium/moly blend grease and "Rem oil" spray. Both can be found at most Walmarts. You will find the grease in automotive. Its the same as gun grease, but cheaper & in a larger tube. The slide gets a film of grease where it slides, the bolt on the sliding rails & lugs, while the trigger housing & its components get oiled.

4. The gas piston should slide with your fingers without lateral wobble. Most Universal carbines can be modified to "single-shot" by removing the piston nut and rotating the piston 180*. After this mod, you have to charge the firearm after each shot.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pschuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2020 at 9:07am
Thanks very much for the quick reply Karl!
I will work on this later tonight and report back.
Years ago I followed the field stripping procedure in the pamphlet supplied by Universal but only removed the barrel/action out of the stock (Monte Carlo version with two springs and a slot for a scope mounting).  At that point I was just interested in learning how the gas operation worked. I have never owned a gas operated rifle....only bolt action 22's and 30-'06 Springfield.   The piston did move just with my finger strength but it is not moveable now after firing about 100 rds.  I was taken back by how small the piston is and how short it needs to travel to move the slide/bolt back (the sudden pulse of pretty high pressure).
Pete
BTW, my background is all radio related....tactical mil radios manufacturing for the last 18 yrs and ham radio for 55 yrs.  I do have a small mill, lathe and other metal working tools as a second hobby and my skills in that area is rapidly improving.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pschuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2020 at 9:38am
Hi Karl,

The piston was in so tight that I drove the plug pin out and then the piston and plug as described by the manual for converting to single-shot mode.
  
I used a brass rod to carefully drive the piston back and forth until it was free to come out of the cylinder.
   
Lots of black deposits inside the cylinder walls and on the piston that contribute to the seizing.  The cylinder ID and piston diameter are very closely machined...maybe too closely machined.   
 
After cleaning the piston now moves with just finger pressure.   The manual says there is no maintenance needed for the piston but I beg to differ on that.   Wonder if I need to oil the piston but it seems that might add to contamination.
  
I am now certain that I allowed bore cleaner to enter the gas port.  The bore must be cleaned with the carbine upside down to prevent this from happening.   

This evening I'll look for and watch the video's on applying lubrication and also on how to clean a gas-operated rifle.  I am going to go thru the Carbine Handbook by Paul Wahl and see if I can find any more info on lubrication.  I looked once before but a long time ago.  

Thanks again,

Pete

This has been an interesting learning process.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2020 at 10:13am
I wouldn't be too concerned about bore cleaner getting in the gas port. It will burn off the first time you fire it and causes no damage. I used to clean m1 carbines upside down and then stopped doing so after some logical forum discussion on the topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pschuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 1:24pm
Thanks for the reply!

I would still consider cleaning with the gas port on top.   When something burns off there are always residues remaining.   

All is good now as far as operation.   Read more about the lubrication in some of the ancient mil manuals.    The slide and bolt smoothly and easily moving and so does the gas piston.   I looked carefully at the bolt face based on the safety concerns with the primer getting struck before the bolt is fully locked (out of battery firing or something like that).   Hope to get to the range (Nedrow Sportsmen Club south of Syracuse) to test fire next weekend or the following weekend. 

One last item that I am concerned about is that to hold the action open I must have an empty magazine installed which is unlike the real GI US Carbine Cal 30 that has some kind of latch.  I'll do some looking into that.     I haven't been to a busy rifle range in a long time....maybe since the early 80's, and I know it is required to show, with no doubt, that the action is cleared.  

Best Regards, 
Pete   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 1:32pm
A chamber flag (or spent shot shell) jammed in the action shows that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 68coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 4:53pm
My circa 1980 Universal has a hold open lever on the right side of the receiver jus to the right of the rear sight. To use it, pull slide back to full-rear position and push the lever forward.

A photo spread of your particular carbine would be helpful.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pschuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 7:29pm
Hi Karl
Interesting about the feature to hold open the action.  This firearm was purchased in 1968.    My old friend mentioned that the mags he had initially did not hold open the action after the last round was fired.  He then received some mags that DID hold open the action.   Wonder if a mod could be made to incorporate this feature in earlier models.
I tried to attach a photo but it drove me nuts trying to reduce the pixels to under 500K so I gave up for now.
Thanks again.
Pete  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beezer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 8:28pm
Every rifle range I have been to required the mag removed and the bolt open.  Removing the mag and placing an orange bolt flag in the chamber is a standard way of showing an empty rifle.  
Chamber flag:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 68coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2020 at 8:36pm
One of my nearby outdoor ranges requires and provides empty chamber flags hand made of weed whacker line trimmer line in a bright color (usually orange, red, green or yellow).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob 459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 05 2020 at 10:29am
Originally posted by pschuch pschuch wrote:

Hi Karl
Interesting about the feature to hold open the action.  This firearm was purchased in 1968.    My old friend mentioned that the mags he had initially did not hold open the action after the last round was fired.  He then received some mags that DID hold open the action.   Wonder if a mod could be made to incorporate this feature in earlier models.
I tried to attach a photo but it drove me nuts trying to reduce the pixels to under 500K so I gave up for now.
Thanks again.
Pete  
 
Pete.
I have a few old magazines from the 40s-50s and all have the ramped followers and do NOT hold the bolt open
The 2 new 10 round magazines I got for legal use in Ca are notched back followers and DO hold the bolt open.
Modifying .30 Carbine Magazine Follower for Bolt Hold-Open
Left is a ramped follower and the right is the notched back that acts to hold the bolt.
 
Some of the more knowledgeable members will weigh in on the subject I'm sure.
<- low post count so take it with a bucket of salt.
 
Google search looks like some are modifying the follower by grinding off the ramp tail to configure the follower to have the catch at the back.
 
Modifying .30 Carbine Magazine Follower for Bolt Hold-Open
 
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 05 2020 at 5:16pm
Hold open was a feature of the 30 round mag and the bolt would close when the mag was removed. The followers on 15 round mags are easy to modify if you want to.
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