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Hi, from Puerto Rico! |
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Posted: May 05 2020 at 11:21pm |
Greetings everyone! My name is Ruben, I’m a police officer from
Puerto Rico and recently acquired a Universal M1 Carbine with S/N 355622. Based on what I’ve researched, I have in my hands a Gen 3 Universal Carbine. What throw me Off is the slide and recoil spring. The slide is not skeletonized And it only have one recoil spring. Any information as to what I have on my hands I will be grateful. Best regards, Rubén |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2968 |
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Welcome to the forum. You can read all about universals in the link below.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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Donnie
On Point Joined: May 31 2018 Location: Newburgh, IN Status: Offline Points: 336 |
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welcome to the forum and thank you for your service. i wish I could help answer your questions, but I have very little information
In addition to folks on this forum as a source of info, you may want to invest in Larry Ruth's book series, War Baby.
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1278 |
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Hi Ruben and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!
It looks like you might have the "Model 1000" described at the bottom of this web page. http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal4.html |
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JackP
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Thanks to all for your quick replies! I have read that website before but not to its entirety. It seems this carbine is a Redux model 1000 as described in the website. It does not have US inscribed on the right side of the receiver so its parts cant be replaced by USGI parts. Thanks once again for pointing in the right direction! I will continue to make some more questions as I will try to make some maintenance to it. Haven’t fired it yet, but I wanted a certified gunsmith to check it first.
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Welcome Crusader_6
What you have is a carbine Universal Firearms was contracted to manufacture with the parts that are on it. Versus their standard hybrid carbine they were making during that time. Years back I communicated with their tool and die man about a number of things that included carbines such as yours. They were made to order for a government or government agency who didn't want the hybrid. They wanted something their personnel were familiar with. Usually meaning they already had .30 cal. carbines made during WWII. Also usually meaning they wanted carbines with parts interchangeable with what they already had. But, being a custom order, there were variations based on what the customer wanted. For a number of years I kept track of the serial numbers, markings, and features used by Universal and others. 355628 is another special order Universal like yours. As is 357016. I have no info for carbines between 355628 and 357016. Obviously 628 was probably part of the same contract. 016 may or may not have been. I have no info on which government or agency purchased these. The photo of the one that had the US stamped on the right side of the receiver was a carbine I owned for evaluation, 308241. Universal stopped marking their carbines with "U.S. CARBINE" on top of the receiver (in front of the bolt) about 1967. I have info on hundreds of Universals and none above 88000, except 308241, have had "U.S." markings anywhere. 308241 is also the earliest special order carbine I've seen so far. It may have been for the one order only. It may have been part of the order contract. It may have been just something Universal did for some unknown in-house reason. The tool and die guy had never seen one with U.S. markings anywhere. He hired on well after Universal had stopped using the U.S. markings. From the special order/contract carbines I've been able to lay hands on and get info on I don't think the absence of the U.S. had anything to do with GI parts compatibility. Parts used on the special order carbines were made to order but most I've seen the only parts different than the hybrid version were related to the slide, twin recoil springs, and/or machining of the receiver that accommodated the slide and twin recoil springs. So the slide and single recoil spring have been interchangeable with their GI counterparts, not with those used on the hybrids. Everything else was interchangeable with the hybrid parts. With some of the hybrid parts being interchangeable with GI, some not. 308241 had the hybrid Universal Firearms bolt with the internal firing pin. The receiver had not been machined to work with the tang at the rear of the GI firing pins. This original safety feature was simply changed to a strong spring holding the firing pin in the rear of the bolt until it was hit by the hammer. But, a receiver not machined to work with the GI firing pins means it wasn't machined to work with a GI bolt. If this makes sense. Keep reading, for a possible reason yours is what it is. Really need to try exchanging GI parts with those on yours to know what will work and what won't. It was a built to order carbine. Now for a possibility of why yours is what it is. Your slide appears to have been cast. Meaning it's not a GI slide. May or may not have been made by Universal. It has some of the features of an M2 slide but hard to tell if it has the cut that channeled the M2 disconnect lever where the M2 needed it to go. Universal was never licensed to make select-fire carbines. This wouldn't stop an end user, like a police department, from converting them to select-fire with full auto capability. But to do so with the GI conversion kits they'd need the slide and receiver with the single recoil spring design. Though they would also need a trigger housing machined to work with the selector switch spring and the disconnector arm. I'm kind of thinking "out loud" here. This may have been a reason some like yours are what they are. It would provide that option if the agency chose to do it at some point. They'd also need to swap the trigger housing. I haven't checked these special order carbines to see if the hole for the trigger housing pin, width of their single forward lug, and space between the two lugs at the bottom rear of the receiver were made to accept a GI trigger housing. Universal's hybrid receivers require slight modifications in these 3 areas to accommodate the GI trigger housings. The tool and die guy didn't mention this. But he may not have known. He was a line worker, not management. Something I need to look into further. Several Universal hybrid carbines with serial numbers slightly lower than yours were being sold retail in the USA in late 1976. Those I have the purchase dates on were bought after they had been distributed to retailers. Based on these and a few other much longer stories, yours was probably assembled and sold in 1976. Early 1977 at the latest. Hope this helps. Thanks for sharing your pics and info. Made my brain work a bit and come up with the thought of conversions to select-fire. Jim |
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Just a P.S.
With these having the holes drilled for a scope mount, the plastic insert for those holes and the gap in the left side of the stock I wouldn't think they were made for the option of conversion to select-fire. The aluminum trigger housing wouldn't hold up. Replacing it with a GI trigger housing would leave open gaps around the GI trigger housing where it sits in the opening in the underside of the stock. So, maybe not for select-fire capability. But something I'll pay closer attention too in the future. Jim |
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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Welcome to the forum. Look's like Jim has provided some great info.
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Crusader_6
I didn't mention, I authored the web pages on Universal. I've been going back over my info and see there are several conflicts with what I wrote above. Such as the US marking meaning compatible with GI parts. I need to go back over the various notes and things I have and get the conflicts straightened out. Will advise. Jim |
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Crusader 6,
I went back over all my material, ex employee interviews, and photos on the "redux" carbines made by Universal. Then rewrote that section on the web page. http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal4.html I started the M1CarbinesInc.com website in March 2008. As you can see it has been a fairly massive project. Now with 92 web pages on about 2 1/2 dozen commercial carbine manufacturers. Add to this the research time and work that was needed for the info on those web pages. I was still working on the research and web pages for BavarianM1Carbines.com, currently 148 web pages. Over time the opportunity for a club website opened up and I started USCarbinesCal30.com, now with 93 web pages and growing. I'm a researcher that knows the value of sharing research. Not a web page techie or web guru. You can see the problems with trying to do too much by myself. One of those problems has been trying to keep up with corrections and additions. One result was the piecemeal updates to the "redux" carbine section. My apologies. Of all of the commercial carbine manufacturers Universal Firearms was and still is unique. For a variety of reasons. One person could devote years of full time work and author an entire book on Universal Firearms and their carbines. I'm simply not that person. I chose to research them all and present a history of each. We do what we can do. If I had just stayed with the commercial carbines Universal's history would have much more detail. I haven't given up on it. Back to your carbine. Have a look at the updated web page. Your slide should be interchangeable with any GI surplus slide. Ditto the recoil spring and recoil spring guide. It would be of help to see a few pics of your bolt and the bottom of the receiver showing the machining of the receiver bridge midway on the bottom. Your barrel is probably interchangeable with a GI barrel but it would require close examination of the barrel by itself before this could be confirmed. You have the Universal Firearms trigger group with their rectangular aluminum trigger housing. The trigger, trigger spring, sear, sear spring, safety, mag catch, and their springs are interchangeable with GI parts. The trigger pin, hammer pin, and trigger housing pin are not interchangeable with GI parts. The trigger housing could be but you would probably want to also replace the stock because of the rectangular cutout for their trigger housing. The hammer has the same dimensions as the late GI hammer, but. The hammers and bolts used by Universal were hardened to work with one another. As was done and is still done by every other commercial manufacturer. And Ordnance with the GI carbines. The but ... only 2 commercial manufacturers have hardened their bolts to GI specs when they couldn't get GI bolts (Fulton Armory & James River). What this means is a GI hammer and GI bolt will beat the commercial bolts and hammers to an early death over time. Not a problem short term but something to be monitored when GI parts are used with commercial parts. If your carbine receiver is machined for a GI bolt and firing pin and you decide to use them you should also use a GI hammer. Not a good idea to use a GI hammer with any commercial bolt. The design of the rear of all the .30 carbine bolts, GI and commercial, includes a safety feature. A GI hammer will lessen the lifespan of that feature. Hope this makes sense. Your carbine may have been sold by a law enforcement agency as surplus when they changed to different weapons. Or, it may have been from a canceled contract or contract overrun and sold retail by Universal. Hope this helps. It would help the work I do to see a few pics of your bolt and receiver, as indicated above. Jim |
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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wow! I see now I was provided with great information. Is there an email or a place where I can send photos? Posting photos here was a pain. Thanks once again for the information!
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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i just noticed that my receiver does not have the “half Heart shape”. Is this an issue? What doe sthis means regarding getting replacement bolts?
Regards, Ruben.
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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Short answer is you would need a Universal type(commercial bolt).
The subject is covered in detail in the interesting and thorough Universal info link provided in the posts above. When you have time read the whole thing!
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Don
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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i did read it but my receiver isn’t like the one’s pictured here. Maybe I didnt understand what I was reading but there is not one picture with a receiver like mine.
Vs the ones in the article show the Hybrid and the Redux Mine is not as pictured above, hence my question Thanks!! Regards, Rubén
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Rubén
The "bridge" on your receiver was the standard after Universal switched to using the bolt with the internal firing pin. There was a transition period while they used up the receivers in inventory already having the bridge cut but it was no longer needed. The purpose of the bridge cut was to engage the tab on the rear of the previous firing pin to hold the firing pin in the rear of the bolt until the bolt lugs rotated and locked. Some have claimed the elimination of the bridge cut eliminated an important safety feature. Not true, the safety feature was changed to a different design that had been in use with other firearms for a long time. That being an internal firing pin inside the bolt, restrained in the rear of the bolt by a strong reliable spring. Similar to the firing pin of the 1911 pistol. The carbine design has an additional safety feature in the design of the rear of the bolt and face of the hammer. To prevent the hammer from striking the rear of the firing pin until the bolt lugs have rotated and locked. The web pages on Universal, and all the others, are not meant to be the equivalent of a reference book. Because of the many years Universal made carbines along with all the changes they made Universal could be a full time research project for one person that would require many years. The concept I used was to share the history with as much detail as time would allow given the size of the overall project. When the forum was added it provided a means to ask questions for more info. I should add a pic of the bottom of the receivers that were like yours. Adjacent the two receivers in the pic above. To avoid any confusion. I received your e-mail. Will be answering it shortly. Hope this helps. Nutshell version, because of the bolt you have your receiver doesn't need the cut in its "bridge". Jim |
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Thanks Voigt and Jim for taking of your time to reply. Now my question is can I switch to usgi bolt and hammer... guess Ill keep reading. Just that, as Jim points out in his website, this is budget prohibitive lol It may take some time to get it up to Mil-Spec standard. Not that I want to make it a franken gun, just want it to have reliable parts for regular use in the range and home defense.
Regards, Rubén
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Rather than try to build it into something it's not, and can't be, you'd be better off buying a GI carbine.
Look at it this way. All of the commercial carbines have been and still are reproductions of the GI carbines. The commercial carbines have been constructed in an ever changing environment of overhead costs and retail values. Companies have made changes to financially survive. Or increase profits. Their main focus has not been building a gun to GI specs that would pass Ordnance inspection by inspectors at the end of their production line. Their focus has been making a replica with an overhead that will allow them to turn a profit and stay in business. When we say something is compatible with GI we're also saying it's not GI. The cost of GI parts and amount of work involved in getting them to fit is no guarantee they will work or last. Mixing GI parts with a commercial carbine and commercial parts can be done sometimes but the two were not built for one another. One way I've described it in the past is look at the carbine and its parts as an orchestra. Orchestras get built from parts that will work together. When one doesn't it can impact the reason the orchestra exists. Replacing that part in an orchestra is no easy task. They may look the same, may look like they fit, but most all require a degree of customization that takes time. If an orchestra had been built to GI spec with replacement parts also built to the same standard it would be a lot less time consuming and a lot less expensive in the long run. Jim |
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Crusader_6
Recruit Joined: May 04 2020 Location: Puerto Rico Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Thanks Jim for your input. As always, each post is a good new source of information. Sorry If I gave the impression of wanting to build something new out of the Carbine, but I wanted to know if needed a replacement due to use of it, I want to be sure what can be used as a replacement and what can’t. Also, I hope this carbine does not have the out of battery issue haha. I haven’t got a chance to go to the range due to the hard time I’m having getting ammunition for it. I had to order bulk to get some cuz the gun shops here didn’t have any. Again, thanks for your time and valuable information.
Regards, Rubén
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