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M1A1 butt plates.

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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 8:09am
So these were being sold on CMP as USGI NOS butt plates that the Cosmoline was just cleaned off of for pics. $105 each. Any thoughts?


http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2022/20190329-222059.0.jpg

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2022/20190329-222044.0.jpg



Edited by New2brass - Mar 17 2021 at 11:09am
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https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 9:00am
Do you have any pics of the other side of the buttplates?

I have pics of WWII M1A1 buttplates as well as at least one post war contract. I'm reluctant to post them all as we don't want those who get it wrong learning what they got wrong and correcting it.

The markings on the buttplates in the pics you posted are not the same as the originals. Different font. Close, but not the same.

A well known tidbit. The last number was the mold position (correction-NOT sprue) number. A mold position number (correction-NOT sprue) was the position on the mold the casting was made from. The mold made multiples at a time. That number 4 would be the Mold number (correction-NOT sprue). If all of his buttplates have that 4 .....

The originals were cast using a sand/resin squeeze mold that gave the buttplate a texture that made the markings difficult to make out. Never seen markings this clear on an original.

Have a look at our M1A1 page. All parts there are originals.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/modelM1A1.html

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 9:22am

Using a sand cast mold with 12 sprue positons, would they get multiple pours before having to build another mold? I know little about sand cast molding, but will refer to the CCNL’s and Jim’s pages accessed by clicking the header at the top of the forum page. Off to learn more about it.


With that technique, a lot of butt plates could be made in a short time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 9:40am
I didn't originally post this pic because I'm running out of allowable data for images, but here is the other side.
My opinion was that these are not close enough to be called USGI plates. If they were I'd have bought them when I contacted the seller for pics. I declined buying stating that they are not USGI. Was hoping I wasn't mistaken.



http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2022/20190329-222035_2019-03-30_14-45-10.0_2019-03-30_14-45-10.jpg


Edited by New2brass - Mar 17 2021 at 11:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 6:47pm
Since I have the markings on the M1A1 web page I see no harm in posting this image here. It's a constant struggle to try to share and compare without going too far and helping the few who would abuse the info.

This has the image of the 3 in question. I moved them to make room for the one to compare them too. I wish the pic of the 3 was better but it's good enough.

A couple things. First, I'm certain these in question are not commercial reproductions or commercial reproductions altered to look genuine. I've been taking photos of all the commercial reproductions over time and saving the photos.

I also have photos of several M1A1 buttplates we believe were probably foreign manufacture for their M1A1 stocks. They have different markings.

Someone was kind enough to share pics of a 1958 postwar replacement M1A1 stock assembly (correction-not the buttplate alone) with the package it came out of. Manufacturer indicated on the package is Jacobs*Henry*Smith ENG. The buttplate has the same foundry mark as those made during WWII as well as the same markings with the exact same font of those made during WWII.

I'm hesitant to call these intentional fakes when what they really are is unknown. What I have no problem saying is the font is not consistent with the genuine M1A1 buttplates used during WWII or the buttplate used on the post WWII by Jacobs*Henry*Smith ENG.

The genuine buttplate is the third one down with the mold position (correction-NOT sprue) indicated as 3 instead of 4. Take a look at the font used for the numbers and compare it to those on the other 3. Then take a look at all the M1A1 buttplates you have or can find pictures of. If you find one that matches these three in question please let me know. All that I have seen are like the third one down in this pic.

Jim

(To view a larger version click on the image)






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 7:30pm
Prepare yourself for an eye strain headache. I inserted 2 we know as genuine in amongst the 3 in question.

Like I said, wish the original pic had been a bit better. But we do what we can.

I'm making no call on these. Will let you form your own opinions.


(To view a larger version click on the image)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 02 2019 at 8:07am
tenOCEE ...

Further discussion via e-mail with Dan and Ted got me looking thru all my picture files at all the M1A1 buttplate pics I've saved. Initially I checked only the GI M1A1 buttplates folder. I missed something.

The two pics below I saved from an EBay auction March 23, 2015. I didn't save the name of the seller of if they were being sold as GI or otherwise. I'd filed them in my commercial and other M1A1 stocks folder so they may have been sold as other than GI or unknown if GI.

Both pics were from the same auction listing.

(To view a larger version click on the image)








I'm still not calling them "fake" as what they really are is unknown. Letters aren't consistent with WWII GI M1A1 buttplates but post WWII a number of other countries bought or were provided with M1A1 stock assemblies and metal stock extension assemblies that included buttplates as military assistance/aid. In addition to a few countries having made their own.

Hopefully this mystery will be solved sometime in the future.

Jim

P.S. Please note I have corrected two of the previous posts above to indicate the number on the far right of the bottom of the M1A1 buttplate was not a "sprue" position. It was the mold position in a mold to make multiples at a time.
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