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M2 carbine headspace issue

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gsyoung54 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gsyoung54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2018 at 7:25pm
Thanks for all the good info in one post.  After I bought my M2 conversion I started researching the M1/M2 carbines and have seen some of this information before but scattered all over the place.  It's a bit odd for me to not do my due diligence research before I buy almost anything.  I got it from an older collector who was getting even older and getting rid of his collection, probably to help pay for his medical bills.. His kids are all grown, live elsewhere and none of them are interested in his FFL/SOT business and I don't believe he has a wife anymore so I may have just been being a nice guy.  It's all OK, I have money and more so even if the thing blows up and takes the serial number with it I will just get another one.
 I haven't called the NFA yet but does anyone know if a person can salvage the serial numbered part of a RR frame and put it on a frame you make yourself as a SOT manufacturer? I'll be applying for my manufacturer's license next year, providing my elderly father's health stays stable.
 Ah yes... the good old days.  I bought one of my DIAS's for $220, A select fire Bushmaster shorty for $1,500, and an select fire MP5 converted from an HK94 for $1,700.  I think I paid only $1,200 for my M3-A1 Grease gun and it remains one of the most fun guns to shoot.  I bought an OSS copy suppressor from Paladin Arms - the thing is heavy but it is absolutely the quietest suppressed centerfire I own.
 Thanks for all the help and advice folks, it's nice being a member of a forum where the members know a lot.

George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2018 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by gsyoung54 gsyoung54 wrote:

Thanks for all the good info in one post.  After I bought my M2 conversion I started researching the M1/M2 carbines and have seen some of this information before but scattered all over the place.  It's a bit odd for me to not do my due diligence research before I buy almost anything.  I got it from an older collector who was getting even older and getting rid of his collection, probably to help pay for his medical bills.. His kids are all grown, live elsewhere and none of them are interested in his FFL/SOT business and I don't believe he has a wife anymore so I may have just been being a nice guy.  It's all OK, I have money and more so even if the thing blows up and takes the serial number with it I will just get another one.
 I haven't called the NFA yet but does anyone know if a person can salvage the serial numbered part of a RR frame and put it on a frame you make yourself as a SOT manufacturer? I'll be applying for my manufacturer's license next year, providing my elderly father's health stays stable.
 Ah yes... the good old days.  I bought one of my DIAS's for $220, A select fire Bushmaster shorty for $1,500, and an select fire MP5 converted from an HK94 for $1,700.  I think I paid only $1,200 for my M3-A1 Grease gun and it remains one of the most fun guns to shoot.  I bought an OSS copy suppressor from Paladin Arms - the thing is heavy but it is absolutely the quietest suppressed centerfire I own.
 Thanks for all the help and advice folks, it's nice being a member of a forum where the members know a lot.



gsyoung54,

I paid $100 more for each of my sequential serial number MP-5's (converted 94's) than you did. Still have both of them. I thought they were expensive at the time.

The short answer to your question about salvaging the serial numbered part of the frame is "No."

The long answer is still "No," in terms of NFA status (Pre-May),but I suppose if for some reason you really wanted to, you could document with ATF that the receiver is being destroyed to their standards, remove it from Pre-May status, and then I suppose you could do anything you wanted to with the serial numbered part, but it would become a posty from that point on. I don't think anyone would want to do that. ATF is extremely sensitive about serial number switching...There are folks currently serving terms in prison for it, and it's probably the biggest controversy to hit the NFA community in the last 10 years. The issue involved taking serial numbers off of cheap MG's (MACs), and applying them to parts kits/receivers of more expensive MG's, and slowly laundering the changes through several dealer to dealer transfers, with small changes made at each transfer. This is one of the reasons so many transfers are held up with NFA Branch follow-up questions nowadays.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gsyoung54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 1:11am
So now I'm wondering just how much of the pre-86 receiver you have to have remaining to have a SOT manufacturer fix it? The crack repair seems straight forward, but what if a persons RR part with the serial number was missing a 1/8" silver from the crack... seems reasonable that the fixer could fill that with weld. And so on up the ladder of bigger cracks and missing chunks of metal. We all paid for the serial number so why can't a person use it on a substantially repaired reciever? I'm sure if I called NFA and they said NO they might assume a person already had blown up their receiver and might look at that gun more closely next time you are inspected. In my case I have a shooter and not really a collectable. If this weld and the new, properly headspace barrel and receiver crack again we are just going to weld long plates where they will fit, of course losing it's almost a real gun look but for this one being a keeper that I got for a good price, if it ever works again!, I don't really care. Next one will be a real one or a sear pack which I will put in a match grade gun..
George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 7:40am
I went with the trigger pack for the typical reasons. One was price, and the other was portability to other Carbines. Even after 8 years or so of being exposed to this hobby I'd still make the same decision. The collectible ones are great, but don't appeal to me enough for the price.

I once wrote the ATF for assistance and found the effort to be nearly worthless. Even after mailing in a hard copy specific question about the M2 Carbine, they replied with an answer to a completely different arm platform; an actual shotgun barrel length with pistol grip answer. Confused

In your situation, the receiver with intact, non-compromised serial number can be repaired. That's really all that you need to worry about, IMO. If the receiver blew up in a manner that messed up the serial you might have a situation in which to contact the agent for a person to person visit to illustrate the repair that you should still be able to perform. It's a registered part with distinct, identifiable serial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manteo97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 2:35pm
Just had a look at those photos of the failure (not a crack, but a fracture), and repair. Note that the fracture opened up, indicating to me that the receiver was bent too.
 
This repair would involve not only welding, but bending the receiver back into alignment before welding. So, one might suspect heat or "brute force" was involved. Did the receiver get back into the original dimensions? Did the headspace problem occur after the weld repair by any chance?

This repair falls into the description of what is know in M1 carbine circles as a "re-weld". (abbreviation might stand for REstorative WELDing). Many agree that this type of welding on a receiver results in a part with suspect integrity. As a licensed gunsmith and retired metallurgist I have to agree too. I've seen nice looking TIG welds that restore the cosmetics, but tend to fail in the region adjacent to the weld metal (HAZ Heat Affected Zone). Your receiver is no longer on spec, and I'd strongly recommend you not shoot this thing, neither semi- nor full-auto.

With respect I-J M1 carbines, the I-J barrels do not have a skirt, as this feature was cast into the receiver to guide the bolt. Plainfields too. So the barrel re-work for headspace mentioned before works quite well, and saves the cost of buying a new barrel. New USGI barrels have to have the skirt trimmed down to fit an I-J or Plainfield receiver. I bought my I-J M1 carbine in 1991, really like it, and it's my go-to bush gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gsyoung54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 5:52pm
The receiver fractured cleanly on both sides, there was no bending involved during the failure or the fix.. The pieces fit back together perfectly.
Headspace was excessive before I shot it, but I didn't know. The bolt assembly still slid forward and back cleanly after the incident. They found the headspace issue down there.
I'm familiar with all types of welding and aware of what can happen during the process. We used to have the ladder truck in my fire station welded on a regular basis on both the steel and the aluminum parts that suffered stress cracks. Welding like that has to be done by a U.L. qualified welder and we never had an adjacent failure in 35 years. I've been involved in aviation welding (not by me) where lightweight steel and aluminum tubing has to be welded by certified welders and we have not had adjacent failures. I know that it happens a lot with too much heat, too much time spent on the weld and unqualified welders.
I will be talking to Fulton Armory once they get my gun and see if they can have the receiver ultrasounded and/or magnafluxed to look for any stress in the metal.
I hope they can do the fix with the barrel that came with the gun.
If everything checks out I'll be shooting it with reduced power loads... already have lots of brass. If it fails, it fails and I'll get another one within the year.
Thanks for the info!


Edited by gsyoung54 - Nov 20 2018 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gsyoung54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

I went with the trigger pack for the typical reasons. One was price, and the other was portability to other Carbines. Even after 8 years or so of being exposed to this hobby I'd still make the same decision. The collectible ones are great, but don't appeal to me enough for the price.

I once wrote the ATF for assistance and found the effort to be nearly worthless. Even after mailing in a hard copy specific question about the M2 Carbine, they replied with an answer to a completely different arm platform; an actual shotgun barrel length with pistol grip answer. Confused

In your situation, the receiver with intact, non-compromised serial number can be repaired. That's really all that you need to worry about, IMO. If the receiver blew up in a manner that messed up the serial you might have a situation in which to contact the agent for a person to person visit to illustrate the repair that you should still be able to perform. It's a registered part with distinct, identifiable serial.


Yeah, I got a weird answer from ATF with regards to a registered DIAS I own. At the time they needed a letter every time you put it into a different serial numbered AR-15 with 16 parts so I sent them a Certified letter letting then know I was moving it from serial number that to serial number this. What I got in return was a weird letter about making select fire guns with the military type auto sear and how only SOT manufacturers can do that. I thought it odd since I gave them the serial number of the NFA item and I spelled out Registered Drop In Autosear.
I think you are right on about the end result of repairs with the serial number intact.
The last ATF agent who did my NFA inspection was a nice young man who looked like he might have been 6 years old in 1986. He was happy that I had taken all of my guns apart and just had receivers with serial numbers so we were not handling complete weapons even though I normally chamber flag everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 19 2018 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by gsyoung54 gsyoung54 wrote:

So now I'm wondering just how much of the pre-86 receiver you have to have remaining to have a SOT manufacturer fix it? The crack repair seems straight forward, but what if a persons RR part with the serial number was missing a 1/8" silver from the crack... seems reasonable that the fixer could fill that with weld. And so on up the ladder of bigger cracks and missing chunks of metal. We all paid for the serial number so why can't a person use it on a substantially repaired reciever? I'm sure if I called NFA and they said NO they might assume a person already had blown up their receiver and might look at that gun more closely next time you are inspected. In my case I have a shooter and not really a collectable. If this weld and the new, properly headspace barrel and receiver crack again we are just going to weld long plates where they will fit, of course losing it's almost a real gun look but for this one being a keeper that I got for a good price, if it ever works again!, I don't really care. Next one will be a real one or a sear pack which I will put in a match grade gun..


gsyoung54,

I believe this is a grey area as to how much a registered receiver could be repaired without altering the original serial number. I suppose such an assessment is yours in almost all regards. If it became a legal issue, then I would hope that a reasonable person would understand the intent, predicament, and desire to fix it. I will say that the ATF seems to take many opportunities to reduce the registry. 11 years ago, during a meeting of The American Thompson Association, we had two well known, friendly ATF agents as guest speakers, and they told us the transferable pool of machine guns was just over 182,000. I've heard that it is now somewhere around 172,000, and I often hear of transferables given up by widows, and being destroyed regardless of current value, since they always hated their husband's gun addiction. There are other scenarios where transferables have also been destroyed, or otherwise removed from the registry due to non-compliance, such as a break in chain of custody to where the status of the firearm becomes void. Some of these could probably be saved, but the funds necessary to litigate is too high. My point is that problem NFA guns are potentially seen by ATF as opportunities to reduce the registry. Just food for thought...

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RClark9595 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 20 2018 at 10:44am
Wow, that's a lot of technical talk for a beginner Carbine hobbyist like me, glad to read it though, learned a lot. Would be a little clearer if I knew what all the abbreviations where, this is something that plagues me all over the internet, that's not understanding their abbreviations, is there an abbreviation guide somewhere that I can reference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 20 2018 at 11:36am
Originally posted by RClark9595 RClark9595 wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of technical talk for a beginner Carbine hobbyist like me, glad to read it though, learned a lot. Would be a little clearer if I knew what all the abbreviations where, this is something that plagues me all over the internet, that's not understanding their abbreviations, is there an abbreviation guide somewhere that I can reference?

Can't disagree with all the abbreviations.  I'm beginning to decipher a few, but some are still a mystery.

I am not aware of a "Rosetta Stone" that deciphers them all; hang in there and you will eventually figure most of them out. 
Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gsyoung54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 20 2018 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

Originally posted by gsyoung54 gsyoung54 wrote:

So now I'm wondering just how much of the pre-86 receiver you have to have remaining to have a SOT manufacturer fix it? The crack repair seems straight forward, but what if a persons RR part with the serial number was missing a 1/8" silver from the crack... seems reasonable that the fixer could fill that with weld. And so on up the ladder of bigger cracks and missing chunks of metal. We all paid for the serial number so why can't a person use it on a substantially repaired reciever? I'm sure if I called NFA and they said NO they might assume a person already had blown up their receiver and might look at that gun more closely next time you are inspected. In my case I have a shooter and not really a collectable. If this weld and the new, properly headspace barrel and receiver crack again we are just going to weld long plates where they will fit, of course losing it's almost a real gun look but for this one being a keeper that I got for a good price, if it ever works again!, I don't really care. Next one will be a real one or a sear pack which I will put in a match grade gun..


gsyoung54,

I believe this is a grey area as to how much a registered receiver could be repaired without altering the original serial number. I suppose such an assessment is yours in almost all regards. If it became a legal issue, then I would hope that a reasonable person would understand the intent, predicament, and desire to fix it. I will say that the ATF seems to take many opportunities to reduce the registry. 11 years ago, during a meeting of The American Thompson Association, we had two well known, friendly ATF agents as guest speakers, and they told us the transferable pool of machine guns was just over 182,000. I've heard that it is now somewhere around 172,000, and I often hear of transferables given up by widows, and being destroyed regardless of current value, since they always hated their husband's gun addiction. There are other scenarios where transferables have also been destroyed, or otherwise removed from the registry due to non-compliance, such as a break in chain of custody to where the status of the firearm becomes void. Some of these could probably be saved, but the funds necessary to litigate is too high. My point is that problem NFA guns are potentially seen by ATF as opportunities to reduce the registry. Just food for thought...

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


Thanks again Dave,
  I seem to remember about 20 years ago when it seemed like the ATF was trying to reduce the number of FFL's out there.  People who had not made "enough sales" (even though there is no law requiring an FFL to make a certain number of sales) and I was myself asked once if I wanted to just give up my license at a hectic time in my life - wife left me with four kids, I was the Fire Chief, Boy Scout leader and Youth group helper at church - I didn't advertise much but luckily kept copies of the advertisements that I did post and I also had a substantial inventory of unsold regular guns and also NFA items.  When I said no about giving up my license and explained my situation, the agent simply said OK... as if he didn't have the right to simply take it away without a better reason.  New applicants for FFL's were often told over the phone that they needed a safe or safes big enough to store all inventory, burglar alarms, deadbolts on all doors and that they really liked applicants who had barking dogs!  None of this is backed up by law but it did dissuade a number of people that did not talk to me to simply not apply because they "knew" based on what they were told over the phone that they could not pass the "premises inspection".  My business has always been conducted in one of the single family homes I have lived in for close to 40 years now.  My inventory has always been laid out on the garage floor on a blanket or on the flat fold out couch bed in the living room.  I put all my personal guns in my bedroom.  Never had a problem with an inspection or a comment about my cluttered houses. 
George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 20 2018 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by gsyoung54 gsyoung54 wrote:

Thanks again Dave,
  I seem to remember about 20 years ago when it seemed like the ATF was trying to reduce the number of FFL's out there.  People who had not made "enough sales" (even though there is no law requiring an FFL to make a certain number of sales) and I was myself asked once if I wanted to just give up my license at a hectic time in my life - wife left me with four kids, I was the Fire Chief, Boy Scout leader and Youth group helper at church - I didn't advertise much but luckily kept copies of the advertisements that I did post and I also had a substantial inventory of unsold regular guns and also NFA items.  When I said no about giving up my license and explained my situation, the agent simply said OK... as if he didn't have the right to simply take it away without a better reason.  New applicants for FFL's were often told over the phone that they needed a safe or safes big enough to store all inventory, burglar alarms, deadbolts on all doors and that they really liked applicants who had barking dogs!  None of this is backed up by law but it did dissuade a number of people that did not talk to me to simply not apply because they "knew" based on what they were told over the phone that they could not pass the "premises inspection".  My business has always been conducted in one of the single family homes I have lived in for close to 40 years now.  My inventory has always been laid out on the garage floor on a blanket or on the flat fold out couch bed in the living room.  I put all my personal guns in my bedroom.  Never had a problem with an inspection or a comment about my cluttered houses. 


I was one of the FFL's that was reduced 22 years ago. I did business out of my house in Austin for 8 years, but ATF found a local ordnance which they interpreted to mean that you couldn't operate a business out of your home, and they wouldn't renew. They told me I was welcome to get a storefront, but that was not an option. At one time there were over 450,000 FFL's, which is probably a little more than needed.

In regards to a previous poster's comment on acronyms, etc., here are the ones that may be hard to interpret:

SOT = Special Occupational Tax - This is the extra annual tax that a dealer pays that gives them the ability to deal in NFA - It can be used to refer to a "Class III" licensee, or a manufacturer, although the SOT tax amounts are different

RR = A Registered Receiver under the NFA - Can be transferable, Pre-May, or Post-May, but this usually refers to a transferable receiver, though the conversation above has been about a Pre-May dealer sample receiver

NFA = National Firearms Act of 1934

Transferable = A fully transferable machine gun under the NFA that normal folks like you and I may purchase

Pre-May = A dealer sample machine gun made prior to May 19, 1986 under the NFA that can only be owned by SOT's - These are typically 40% to 60% of the value of a transferable

Posty = A post May 19, 1986 dealer sample machine gun that can only be owned by SOT's - These typically have little value - Maybe just a little bit more than a parts kit, unless it is a brand new machine gun that is hard to get

Keeper - A keeper is a Pre-May 1986 dealer sample, which can be kept by an FFL after they give up their SOT

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RClark9595 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 14 2018 at 11:01am
David, Thank you for the explanations, some of those acronyms I would never have figured out unless I got into the gun sales or manufacturing business. Most people just expect you'll know there meaning, and those of us on the receiving side don't want to appear dumb and don't ask. Kind of reminds me of my Air Force days where everything is an acronym. This is one of the better threads I've read, lots of good information here, specially about reclaiming a cracked receiver, I pretty much know now what I'll do if confronted with a similar situation.
Again Thanks.
Ron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 14 2018 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by RClark9595 RClark9595 wrote:

David, Thank you for the explanations, some of those acronyms I would never have figured out unless I got into the gun sales or manufacturing business. Most people just expect you'll know there meaning, and those of us on the receiving side don't want to appear dumb and don't ask. Kind of reminds me of my Air Force days where everything is an acronym. This is one of the better threads I've read, lots of good information here, specially about reclaiming a cracked receiver, I pretty much know now what I'll do if confronted with a similar situation.
Again Thanks.


RClarke9595,

Thanks for your kind words. Glad I could help. Just let me know if you have any other questions.

David Albert
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