My Winchester carbine - what have I got?

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   I have a late 1943 or early 1944 Winchester Carbine.  Need help in determining authenticity.  While the serial number indicates it to be from the first batch of Winchester serial numbers, and the barrel has a "W" stamp rather than "WRA", the bolt is round and the rear sight is not the 'L' type but rather a stamped adjustable version.  The barrel band has a bayonet lug, and most strangely, the serial number is stamped on the stock. The stock is banged up (as I would suspect of a 85 year old stock). What have I got?  Please see pictures below.

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gaschenf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Recruit Joined: Aug 09 2018 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1	Post Options Post Reply Quote gaschenf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: My Winchester carbine - what have I got? Posted: Aug 31 2018 at 7:56pm
	I have a late 1943 or early 1944 Winchester Carbine. Need help in determining authenticity. While the serial number indicates it to be from the first batch of Winchester serial numbers, and the barrel has a "W" stamp rather than "WRA", the bolt is round and the rear sight is not the 'L' type but rather a stamped adjustable version. The barrel band has a bayonet lug, and most strangely, the serial number is stamped on the stock. The stock is banged up (as I would suspect of a 85 year old stock). What have I got? Please see pictures below.

floydthecat Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998	Post Options Post Reply Quote floydthecat Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Aug 31 2018 at 8:19pm
	It appears to be an arsenal rebuild and possibly an Israeli import. Pull the receiver and look closely on the right side at the rear just under the sight. Any marks will be covered by the stock. Look for anything that looks like stamping or marks. Usually it’s difficult to see. Not bashing the gun. I had an Underwood with the SN stamped on the stock and it was the most accurate carbine I have owned.

New2brass Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656	Post Options Post Reply Quote New2brass Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Aug 31 2018 at 8:53pm
	85 year old stock? Hope a typo. your 1943 or 1944 is right on Receiver was serialized Dec 16 1943. may or may not have been completed till 44. most likely shipped in 44 I would expect to see a W as well as the WP Winchester proof mark on barrel if it is original to receiver. It may be under band. If all original parts I would suspect it has been corrected because of the .U. rebuild mark. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html If the carbine was not upgraded before going to Underwood for rebuild it surely would have been updated at that point. This would include the barrel band, rear sight, flip safety and mag catch. Those that had early hammers and springs would have them swapped out as well. Though a L front sight was a Winchester thing in first block I would not expect it on a late serial number in first block. Lyman was the front sight provider to Winchester. The vast majority were not marked. They were however distinctive that they can be picked out from other unmarked front sights. The reason you may not have correct sight is because original was removed to swap barrel band. Further with adjustable rear sight they would put new front sight to sight the carbine in (assuming ft sight was to low) Agreed that it spent time in Israel based on serial number on side of stock. Only record found was carbines sent to Israel was in 1978. They may have received them from other sources http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html But I believe one other country may have done this as well. Serials on stock have also been observed near oiler cut. We call that stock a potbelly. It is a post war upgrade. Has all the latest refinements. Shooters like them better as I understand it. Interesting is the 1 and 5 marks. I believe sometimes there is a mark near rear sight on stock with 50, 100 or 200 which I would guess is showing amount of meters the carbine was sighted in for. Looks to be a fine shooter. Post more pictures and you will find out much more. Welcome to the forums!
	Club Survey Saginaw Receivers

m1a1fan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736	Post Options Post Reply Quote m1a1fan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Aug 31 2018 at 9:26pm
	Welcome to the forum. While it has been to the arsenal, it's an honest example of a carbine. Hasn't been monkied with, i.e. restored and has that been there done that look. Congrats on the acquisition.

tenOCEE Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330	Post Options Post Reply Quote tenOCEE Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep 01 2018 at 10:55am
	When the serial number matches the one stamped on the stock accept that it indicates an import stamped Carbine. Commonly it's the barrel being stamped with the tiny letters. I suppose some may have had the stamp on the right side of the receiver. Often times the stamped serial on the stock doesn't match the receiver serial number, but even those are almost always import stamped. I have an IP stock with original IP cartouche that has an early NPM serial number stamped from Israel. For years my favorite Carbine was the arsenal upgraded Win that started my collecting.

Bubba-7 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Recruit Joined: Mar 06 2016 Location: Columbus, Ga. Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bubba-7 Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 11:06am
	Yes 10, you always remember your first one. But do you still have it? I still have my first one, a DCM 4.59 Rock-Ola. Came with one 15, two 30 mags and fifty rounds for $90.00 OTD. 1972 La Grange, Ga.

tenOCEE Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330	Post Options Post Reply Quote tenOCEE Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Oct 07 2018 at 11:17am
	Oh, yes. I still have it. It's ridiculously over-restored. I still love it.

RClark9595 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List On Point Joined: Oct 30 2017 Location: WVC Utah Status: Offline Points: 136	Post Options Post Reply Quote RClark9595 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 7:16am
	I have a Winchester mix-master that was rebuilt by Underwood, when I get into it like for cleaning, almost all the parts are Underwood, only the barrel and receiver are Winchester. So I jokingly call my gun an Un-Winchester, how's that for a new model?
	Ron USAF 4535 CCTS F4 Combat Crew Training Vietnam era Vet.

jackp1028 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1276	Post Options Post Reply Quote jackp1028 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 11:24am
	Ron, if you have an Un-Winchester, then I must have an In-Winchester. Except for the receiver and barrel, almost all the parts are Inland.
	JackP