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OMFG Recoil Checks are now being FAKED!

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W5USMC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by bldrhouse bldrhouse wrote:

the wingnut and the (nylock?) insert seem absolutely wrong. former seems painted (?).


Your wingnut looks exactly like the wingnuts on both my (F in oval) recoil check and flash hider. The wingnuts are painted not parkerized.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2019 at 9:14pm
Same with the NLD. Underwood (much earlier production) used the "stamped & folded" style of wingnut and it was parkerized. They all have a nylon insert (except the fakes as shown above) to prevent loosening. Their primary effect is to make the carbine's bark a bit louder (to the shooter).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bldrhouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 27 2019 at 10:01am
Why does nylock concern you?

I assumed that the nylock was not original; both my Carbine grenade launcher and flash suppressor do not use them, they are both parkerized, and the painted wingnut is completely different than the others I've seen when searching online.

What make is it?

Hard to read, but the F in circle is there...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 27 2019 at 1:58pm
Look close at the F in a circle I posted above.
Nylon has been around a long time. The original locknuts used fiber rings to bind on the threads.
Popular Science 1931



Nylon came into play in the late '30s

Via Wiki
 During World War II, almost all nylon production was diverted to the military. Though that does not necessarily mean for locknuts. It was used in parachute cord and para shoots.
 "Nylons"  were used to barter with locals.  

In 1944 Aberdeen Proving Ground was requested to come up with a cone flash hider. 
The T23 was the first limited procurement flash hider for the T3 carbine.
Infantry board recommended a change to the wingnut orientation and the addition of a "wingnut with an insereted nylon washer" and be adopted for use with the M2 carbine.
The Hider, Flash, M3 was the result and was recommended as standardized and approved in late 45. 

I am not sure of the start date of the Check, Recoil but Springfield was who developed it and was recommended for adoption a little later 45 as well.

Yes, we see different wingnuts on some muzzle devices, but you have to consider timeframes.
As mentioned the F in circle is believed to be US made for a foreign contract.

There was something about aluminum to keep things light, might be wrong on that. Aluminum cannot be parkerized which may explain the paint. It might also be that the parkerizing of the time was in excess of nylons melting point, assuming the wingnuts are steel.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 27 2019 at 3:44pm
In agreement with others, my -U- has the "folded" wing nut and the NLD a black painted aluminum wingnut.  Both with "lock-nut" inserts.  In a couple other forums I see a reference to WB2 p. 568 and "War Baby Comes Home" pages 623-624.  I only have "War Baby".  Anybody want to see what they say?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 27 2019 at 5:03pm
WB 568 is on the .22 cal S.C.H.V. carbine, similar to the spitfire cartridge.
623-624 is what I touched on ever so slightly, I would recommend WB 2 for development of accessories, experiments, Springfield Armory, and international Aid. It also rolls into the commercial carbines as well
WB3 has a little additional information on pages 1340-1341
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2019 at 4:54am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

I am not sure of the start date of the Check, Recoil but Springfield was who developed it and was recommended for adoption a little later 45 as well.


FWIW, the original date of the drawing for #7813891 from Springfield Armory Ordnance Corps I have is April 8, 1946. I've never seen an SA recoil check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2019 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:

. I've never seen an SA recoil check.

Nor have I. WB pg 623 states "Springfield Armory was requested to fabricate six recoil checks...."
"One model T12 was informally submitted"

next page says the "Check, Recoil, M1", recommended for adoption on Oct 21, 1945

Only ones listed in WB are NLD and .U.

As to the drawing dates, we see several drawings with dates later than expected. I believe one of the other Armories redrew many of the blueprints and there seems to be a gap or missing dates.
Some of the patents for the carbine were submitted after production ceased.

Do you have a drawing date for the Hider, Flash, M3?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2019 at 7:56pm
No I don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 5:16am
Regarding recoil checks with F in a circle.  Found a 2011 discussion from Bill Ricca stating, "It was a State Dept contract for an overseas country during the mid 1950's to early 1960's. They first came into the country circa 1998-2000. Those and the same marked Flash Hiders were never used by US Military."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadycon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 11:52am
M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bldrhouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 12:56pm
ARGH!  

Even more confused after all the above, and seeing the three for sale on ebay link, including fact that my Carbine flash suppressor and my grenade launcher both have parkerized wingnuts w/o nylon insert.

Is the conclusion that the "F in circle" is definitive proof that such is not a WWII item, based on the Bill Ricca quote from sling00?  

Here's the (barely legible) info on mine, about which I started this query.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by bldrhouse bldrhouse wrote:

ARGH!  

Is the conclusion that the "F in circle" is definitive proof that such is not a WWII item, based on the Bill Ricca quote from sling00?  


Perhaps you should consider when the recoil check was recommended for adoption vs. when WW2 ended.Unhappy

Also read page one of this thread, as it was mentioned earlier about the F in an oval.
It is believed to have been made by Fero or Ferro which I believe was a division of GM. The logo is similar if not the same on parts made for military vehicles.
I hope one-day someone into military vehicles shares a picture of that marking to see if it can be determined if the same.

Carbines served countries all over the world, So the F would be a correct carbine accessory made in the USA, just that it was made for a foreign contract.

Numrich still has these for 41.95  plus shipping. Unless you greatly overpaid or the seller misrepresented the item.............

At to your comparing the three on auction, one clearly has a painted wingnut just like all the F checks posted on this thread, one of them has a different wingnut. The third is not pictured.
How do you know someone did not take the correct as manufactured wing nut off that recoil check and put on one they thought was correct?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bldrhouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 5:13pm
"...consider when the recoil check was recommended for adoption vs. when WW2 ended."

Am I understanding that you're saying the recoil check was perhaps not a WWII item?  If so, yes, I assumed it was...  

"How do you know someone did not take the correct as manufactured wing nut off that recoil check and put on one they thought was correct?"

At this point I honestly don't know much at all about all of this...Wacko

I appreciate your point that  "the F would be a correct carbine accessory made in the USA, just that it was made for a foreign contract."  Perhaps I'm being to finicky about this item's provenance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 7:47pm
Research being done at the National Archives for the infrared research project has turn up a few of the Army documents regarding development and approval of the recoil checks.

23 May 1945 Office of the Chief of Ordnance to Infantry Board at Fort Benning, GA - Recoil Check, T12 and T13, along with prototype improved wing nut to be submitted to Infantry Board for testing

31 Jul 1945 Infantry Board to Commanding General, Ground Forces, Army War College - Forwarding Infantry Board report on tests of recoil check

11 Aug 1945 HQ Army Ground Forces to Commanding General, Army Service Forces attn to Research & Development Division - forwarding Infantry Board tests report of recoil check, recommends T13 recoil check with re-positioned wing nut be standardized and issued at earliest possible date

07 Sep 1945 Army Service Forces, Sub-Committee on Small Arms to Ordnance Technical Committee - recommendation for adoption of "Check; Recoil, M1 (T13) for Carbine, Caliber .30, M2".

24 Sep 1945 Blueprints of M1 (T13) recoil check prepared by Research & Development Service

11 Oct 1945 Ordnance Technical Committee approves adoption of the recoil check as standard accessory to the M2 carbine.

14 Nov 1945 Chief of Ordnance to Springfield Armory - orders to conduct a production study and prepare a set of Standard Ordnance Drawings

04 Dec 1945 Springfield Armory to Chief of Ordnance - recommended changes to design of recoil check M1 (T13) relative to production model

09 Jan 1946 Chief of Ordnance to Springfield Armory - changes approved

06 May 1946 Springfield Armory to Chief of Ordnance - Brown prints & Ordnance Drawings submitted

17 Sep 1946 Springfield Armory to Chief of Ordnance - estimated costs of production (just estimates, no manufacturers identified)

There are no drawings or manufacturer production information in the documents. They do mention 6 T12 and 6 T13 prototypes made by Springfield Armory for the Infantry Board tests.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bldrhouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2019 at 11:27pm
Jim,

I'm impressed with your research, and now have the sense that these gizmos were not WWII production.

Thank you.

z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2019 at 7:00am
At some point I want to overhaul the web page on the Model M2 carbine. So I save these things when they make themselves known.

It's standard operating procedure for those who read an article, book, web page not to realize the amount of time it took to make it happen. Just the nature of authoring something that also needs research.

The work we're doing on the Infrared Sniperscopes and Snooperscope has and still does require a lot of research time. Real glad to have partnered with Dan on this IR stuff. I'm the only one authoring and building all the web pages so it's slow going getting all online that we want online.

Real glad you folks are building a database of information we can go to in the future. Like any other research, sorting through everything in the data available can be a time challenge but well worth it due to the gems we find.

Back to the recoil check and the Model M2 carbine.

We also have documents on the T4 and M2 carbines. Below is an outline with the dates. Much of this info has already been published but we try to go for copies of the original documents to verify things and not just plagiarize the work of others. Which was sometimes limited by what was available at the time or interpreted differently based on what was available at the time.


08 Sep 1944 Small Arms Committee recommendation to Ordnance Technical Committee for adoption of the Model T4 carbine as the Model M2 carbine.

09 Sep 1944 Chief of Ordnance to HQ, Army Services Forces, Research & Development Division - In order to comply with the recommendation being made by the Small Arms Committee action was taken to acquire 500 Model T4 carbines for the purpose of shipping 495 T4's to the various theaters.

14 Sep 1944 Ordnance Technical Committee approval of the T4 carbine as the M2 carbine

02 Oct 1944 HQ, Army Services Forces to Chief of Ordnance - Approval of ...
       6 to the Chief of Ordnance
     95 to the USMC
   394 to Army Ground Forces distributed as follows...
          125 to SW Pacific command
            50 to Pacific Ocean command
          125 to European Theater command
            50 Mediterranean Theater command
            20 Infantry School command
              7 Field Artillery School command
              7 Cavalry School command
            10 Airborne Center, command


22 Nov 1944 Army Service Forces Ordnance Office to HQ, Army Ground Forces - details shipment numbers and dates from 04 Nov 1944 to 20 Nov 1944 to the four theaters of war.

Something worth knowing and remembering that has and can still cause confusion. Especially when reading these documents. When the Ordnance Technical Committee adopted something thereafter that something was what the Ordnance Technical Committee adopted it as. Not whatever model number was on the receiver. In this case the carbines with the T4 markings on the receiver were no longer referred to as T4's after 14 Sep 1944. The marking on the existing receivers, put there by the manufacturer(s), were not changed. Didn't need to be as the definition of the model to the War Dept and U.S. Military wasn't the marking on the receiver. It was the definition of what had been adopted. In this case what was adopted as the M2 carbine was the T4 carbine which already had the select fire kit. The manufacturers of the model were to indicate M2 if the carbine had the select fire kit. M1 carbines having the select-fire kit added became the Model M2 carbine. Changing the number from a 1 to a 2 wasn't necessary or done as any carbine with a select-fire kit defined the model number, not the number placed on the receiver by a manufacturer. And yes, this opens a whole new discussion as to ATF's decision to identify a machine gun by the marking on the receiver. Very different topic I won't get into at this point. For a preview have a look at the web page on the Model M3 carbine.

Back to those T4's. The T4's shipped to the 4 theaters were issued to combat units for evaluation. This is a normal part of the testing process called Field Trials. The command of each combat unit was responsible for preparing a report of their evaluation of the key points requested by Ordnance. Which included recommendations for changes.

We have copies of Field Trial reports with dates from 19 Jan 1945 to 12 Mar 1945 from units of the 5th Army and 7th Army. Some refer to the carbine as the M2, some refer to it as the M2 (T4). I have a Field Test report from the command of one of the Pacific combat units indicating they had received the T4's.

Meanwhile back stateside the manufacturers (Inland & Winchester) starting adding select-fire kits to the carbines they were contracted to make with the select-fire kits and add the M2 marking to.

Some of the feedback Ordnance received for the full-auto use of the carbines was they needed .... various descriptions of what ended up being the recoil check. From the info in my last post you can see this had been figured out before they received the M2 (T4).

Knowing all this, ask yourself if the Model M2 carbine was used during WWII.... it's not the same question as was the carbine with M2 on the receiver used during WWII.

Jim
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