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Inland Sight Question

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GeorgeG View Drop Down
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    Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 12:52pm
I recently picked up what seems to be an original 6.4mm Inland carbine.  It does have one issue though.  The peep sight is broken off of it's sliding base.  I hate to replace the sight as it's still factory staked.  Would anyone have any ideas on how to fix this with the sight on the gun?  Perhaps it would be best to leave things as-is?  Thanks for any advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 3:23pm
It's not likely that you will be able to repair your rear sight. It was meant to only "be replaced as an assembly" per the TM. This goes particularly for the stamped rear sight. With the proper assembly/disassembly fixture you should be able to easily replace your sight even though it's staked. Here's a link to the necessary fixture:

https://www.amazon.com/Carbine-Rear-Sight-Removal-Installation/dp/B00BOF3CMS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524165217&sr=8-1&keywords=m1+carbine+sight+tool

Here's a link to a video instruction on using the tool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSgHAihjB64

Here's a link to a reliable source of replacement rear sights:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M1-CARBINE-STAMPED-ADJUSTABLE-REAR-SIGHT-WWII/302485909837?epid=15007168873&hash=item466d90b14d:g:OT0AAOxyJ59RGYPj

It's possible to replace the sight without using the fixture by using a brass punch but care should be taken to remove the old sight from left to right and install the new sight from right to left. The dovetail is tapered and the receiver is brittle. There is a danger of breaking out the dovetail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 3:56pm
Jack, I have the tool and have used it on the flip sights that weren't staked.  With the staking, is there much risk that I could break the receiver?  Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 4:22pm
There is always a risk. That said, I have replaced several and so far, no problems. Since you don't need to save the broken sight perhaps you could carefully grind away the staking in the sight base first using a Dremel tool to minimize your risk. I have never felt the need to do this and I had some pretty ugly staking to deal with. I think you will be okay if you take it slow and easy, use plenty of lube and follow the fixtures instructions. Also, be sure to use the little channel piece that keeps the sight ears from bending. It makes a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 4:31pm
Jack, good information, thanks.  I'm going to have to have another look at my tool.  I don't remember a spacer, but it's configuration is a little different than the one on Amazon.  I was taking a closer look at the sight.  It looks like there are little tabs that prevent the slide from coming out of the sight.  I wonder if these could be bent and the slide pulled out from the back side?  I suspect the tabs would break when you bent them back, but I guess not much would be lost if the sight has to be replaced anyhow. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 19 2018 at 5:27pm
I've seen two types of stamped rear sights. One type has a pin sticking up at the rear of the ramp to keep the aperture from sliding out (usually marked JAO). The other type has the bent tabs as you describe (usually marked I.R.CO). Maybe the first type could be repaired by removing and replacing the pin, I don't know. I would be concerned that bending and rebending the tabs might not work but I guess it doesn't hurt to try. Also, do you have a replacement aperture and ball detents? If not, the only place I know to get them is to cannibalize another Type 3 sight. Also, the aperture for the first type is different than the aperture for the second type. I don't know if they are interchangeable. To me it makes more sense to just replace the whole thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 4:02pm
Jack,
I've used a Dremel to cut a center section out, leaving the junk sight in 3 pieces.
Lessons the chances of Dovetail damage.
Just be careful not to cut to deep and mar the bottom.

I didn't check your links, but the guy in France (Nenel3) has Type II Milled for $35. free ship.
I'd ask for a HI or PI .
You have to sift thru his listings, often the same items are listed at different prices.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 6:04pm
Painter, the link I suggested was for Nenel3's I.R.CO. stamped sight to match the OP's existing. It's a few bucks cheaper, too.

BTW, Ruth says there were three slight variations of the stamped sight. I have found only two, I.R.CO with the bent tabs at the top of the ramp and J.A.O. with the pin at the top of the ramp. What was the third type? Was it with and without the part number?     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 8:57pm
UUUUGGHHH... Confused
Hope this makes sense:

J.A.O. and #7160060, front with 2 bent up stop tabs, left rear corner with one up right stop post.

I.R.C.O. and #7160060 with all 4 corners having the bent up stop tabs.

Stamped H in shield, no #'s front with 2 bent up stop tabs, left rear corner with one up right stop post.

JP,
I hadn't looked at your links. Seen Nenels items the other day. Just thought I'd toss the Milled Type II sight, cause I like them better than stamped.

I had a guy here over the winter that had both rear stop tabs broken off. We still had his peep. Gave some thought to just pinching or staking the 2 corner inner rails down. But was worried I'd bust it. So I mixed and tinted some JB weld and just pinched a little in the back corners. Tooled it off with a flat toothpick, when it dried you couldn't see it, solid fix and still working.

Approve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 8:30am
May I suggest a very small triangular file instead of grinding. You must not remove any metal other than the dimple of the staking. Put some paper under the file so as not to remove any metal from the base and stop filing as soon as the dimple is removed otherwise the dove tail will be to lose.
Good luck,
Charles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 9:20am
Gentlemen, I'm probably over-thinking this one, but I really hate to disturb the staking on an original carbine.  I may just get a junk IRCO sight at a gun show and experiment with bending the rear tabs.  Maybe I'll get lucky and they can get bent back w/o breaking.  If not, as Charlie said, JB Weld could be used to discretely retain the slide. Thanks to everyone for responding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 1:57pm
George, let us know how it turns out.

Painter, I get what you're saying but the difference is only in the marking. I was thinking a design difference, like one without the adjustable index plate. I know I have seen commercial reproductions without the index plate but were there any USGI sights made like that? Here's a picture of what I believe is a reproduction:




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 2:14pm
Is there an actual dovetail measurement for a carbine noted somewhere? Must be close to .490. The Brits use 9mm. My answer for my Underwood 2.8 receiver shooter project is make my own dovetail base blank and use a Lyman 55-H rear peep modified to attach to the home made blank. Making my own complete 20" barrel and the front sight to be a Lyman .017 globe such as found on a Win model 75 target. Both effective sights small and more fitting to size and weight of a carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 3:56pm
I have been unable to find any Ordnance Department blueprints of the carbine receiver showing dovetail dimensions. The only drawings of the carbine that I have been able to find are .jpg files of the slide, trigger housing and stock and these drawings are incomplete in that the revision history and title block data has been redacted. If anyone out there has detailed drawings of the other carbine parts please let us know. It would be great to make them available to the club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 5:53pm
Thanks JP, that would be very interesting to me. For a parts gun shooter, it's fun to try putting something together without altering receiver or triggergroup in any way as may come up with something later on where would be more important. I have mixed feelings about the later style sights but if highly collectable piece, you would have to go with what is right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 6:11pm
With the sight in place I measure 11.49 mm at the narrowest or top and 12.20 mm at the bottom with daylight under sight in place.Hope this helps.
Charles D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2018 at 6:25pm
Charles, we are told that the dovetail is tapered and it is wider on the right than on the left, thus the instruction to remove the sight from left to right and install from right to left. Is this what you observed when you measured the dovetail? If so, how much taper?

James K, I will start a new thread and post pictures of all the parts drawings that I have (probably under "Research Projects"). Maybe others have drawings as well. We'll see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2018 at 12:19am
I have been doing alot of measuring and my digital calipers are probably not the correct tool, but the Underwood which does not have a sight, I get different readings but appears to me as straight cut. I have a number of 22 front sights and you can see the taper in the sight. I have a number of sights and bases in my collections and the measurements are everywhere,much confusing. Some being British Vickers doesn't help. I will measure and or buy flip sight at gunshow just to compare. I understand and respect the install from the right, remove from the left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2018 at 9:04am
Sorry, with the sight in place I am unable to measure but one side as it is not centered. These measurements are on the left side.
Charles
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