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Moving parts around?? |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Posted: May 13 2017 at 4:39pm |
Looking for some advice or thoughts. I had mentioned in my introduction a couple of weeks ago that between 2007-2009 I managed to get 10 carbines from the CMP all different prime contractors. I have not, with the exception of 2 recoil plates, moved any parts around. I had my inland apart the other day and noticed it has a SW-S'G' sear and what I believe is a Grand Rapids trigger so naturally my 1st thought is that I should move those parts to my S'G'. So I guess what I am asking is should I attempt to move as many "correct" parts around as I can within my collection??
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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W5USMC,
It's definitely a personal call. You can look at it at least two different ways: #1 - Having a desire to take it back to "factory original" condition #2 - These Carbines were arsenal refurbished, and their mixed parts are a part of their military history, and they should be left that way Some issues may arise with #1 above, as more is learned about parts sharing from the factories, and it may seem like certain parts should not have been in a particular Carbine, but then we learn later that a part was shared between manufacturers, or some other anomaly comes to light. I lean towards group #2, though I am certainly not opposed to #1. Just be careful to document what you do, and if a Carbine appears to have never been arsenal refurbished, be especially careful. I would suggest starting by doing Carbine Data Sheets on all 10 Carbines. From there, you can use the data to determine which parts you might wish to switch. Just my $.02. I'm sure others will also offer their suggestions. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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The way I see it, it comes down to your long range plans. Once you move the parts around then the rifle is no longer "as supplied by the CMP" and I'm not sure what impact that would have if you decide to sell the rifles sometime. A lot of folks like CMP certified rifles since they have been inspected and are known to be genuine. On the other hand if your goal is to correct your collection then you have a great start and you know the parts you have are good to go. That should increase their value so probably no harm there.
Sorry that's not much to go on. Hopefully someone with more insight will join in on your quandary.
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GotSnlB28
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 892 |
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IMO, if they are mixmasters/rebuilds as most were I'd just leave them that way. That's what I've done with most of my CMP carbines, with the exception of changing a few M2 stocks to M1 stocks. I think I replaced one front sight with a taller one so it would target properly. I have built a few BR's up and in a couple of those cases for fun I tried to obtain the correct parts with the right finish.
In any case, functionality wins over correctness. Changing worn parts can lead to something not working as well. I have a Bavarian trigger group that came on a CMP rifle where the trigger pull is so nice and smooth I can imagine an old German gunsmith working on it for hours until it was perfect. It's not correct but would be a shame to change it. |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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If one wants to swap parts or restore, go for it. Some like to swap parts/restore, some don't but the preference is inconsequential IMO. In order to swap parts or restore correctly, one must learn. For instance, swapping an Inland part into another Inland may or may not be correct. If an activity leads to knowledge and the changes are captured and passed on if an item is sold, nothing wrong with that. At least swapping parts is cheap compared to correcting. JMO, but if it from the CMP, I would leave it alone. Even if left alone, the parts can be identified, wear patterns noted and knowledge gained. That knowledge can then be applied to identity something of value. The trick is knowing the difference.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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there is a difference between "as left the arsenal" and "as received by the CMP"
A CMP certified carbine has been checked and may have had parts swapped.
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Certainly true, but God only knows the difference. Parts swapping in either environment likely came down to the luck of the draw, unless there was any concerted effort by CMP to make Carbines "correct." David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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cali201
Grunt Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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Well most of my carbines started as mix masters, a few I acquired came with correct parts but never sure if they were "corrected" before I became their caretaker. I swap parts, there, I admit it. But I do so for MY enjoyment, I like to have Winchester parts in my Winchesters, etc., that is MY hobby. Never trying to pretend or build a "bring back". My carbines are my legos. And on that note looking forward to getting some parts from Maple Lane wink wink.
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
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Hey....I live on Maple Lane.....seriously. U ain't gettin' any of my parts....
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Parts swapping is a personal decision, in other words if it's for a particular collector's personal enjoyment, then more power to him. However, if it's being done to claim originality now or on down the road when it becomes sales' time then I don't care for that.
It wasn't how I felt early on, but the more I've learned about these guns, along with the current collecting environment, the more I believe the originality of many carbines was compromised years ago. Of course that doesn't stop people from claiming originality when one simply doesn't know if the tiniest spring or other part hasn't been changed in a particular carbine's 70 plus year existence. What's interesting though is that some guys get their feathers riled when you correct and others get their riled when their claims of originality are challenged. I guess all of that is part of collecting M1 carbines. |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I believe I will leave my carbines "as received from the CMP" I have the luxury of being able to shoot in my front yard so over the next couple of weeks I will shoot them all, as I am cleaning each one, I will learn how to fill out data sheets and take pictures of all the parts, keeping the pics on file for my reference so at least I know what parts I have on each individual carbine.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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If you don't already have a bolt disassembly tool, get one before you start on the data sheets.
David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
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Nice to meet another shooter that has the shoot-where-and-when-I-please option. Front porch, back porch...or even from an open window. Only time I get in trouble is when the brass piles up and the wife makes me pick it up. I have no use for a range-bag either.
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cali201
Grunt Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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Well for example the spring tube Winchester I picked up recently was an import from Israel. The person who I got it from knew nothing of carbines (I know by the price I paid lol). It had its correct t1 slide but an early Inland bolt. So is replacing that bolt with a Winchester wrong? I do not think so; who knows when that bolt was placed there!! During its rebuild perhaps? And if so which bolt should be in it? We all know during rebuilds parts were stripped, tossed into bins then taken out for re-assembly into whatever carbine was in the hands of the rebuilder. Is not that where a lot of original "swapping" took place? Was what the rebuild stations did wrong? Or is now placing the parts that were and probably originally in the carbine before it hit rebuild wrong? (Sort of a reverse rebuild???) Is the train of thought that when it came from rebuild with Inland parts here and there that is what should be now considered to be correct for that carbine now and it should not be altered? I am replacing the Inland bolt and trigger housing internals (but with a T3 Winchester hammer as the strike marks are there). The T2 rear sight, the MMQ T3 barrel band will remain, they have staked their claim to the carbine (if you know what I mean). The cut down T2 stock with its serial number stamped in the side (a signature of an Israeli return carbine) will remain also.
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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Regarding "...and may have had parts swapped", here's simplified datasheet for my CMP carbine from the last sale. I have serious doubts if it arrived in Anniston this way. My guess is somebody gathered up parts and put it together. Anybody else care to make a guess? This definitely proves the interchangeability of parts. Looks like the bolt may have been an original combination. It was pretty grimy: Based on CC Datasheet and Riesch's book Receiver - I.B.M. CORP. S/N 3856XXX Barrel - ROCK-OLA Undated M-1, T-2, 2 flaming bombs on left side. Stock Unmarked - M2, nice dark walnut Handguard - M-U (Underwood) Trigger Housing - Type I, N (Nat'l Postal Meter) with 9 production code Barrel Band - Type III J.M.Q. (Mueller made for Quality Hardware) Bayonet lug - CQ (Consolidated for QHMC) Mag release- Type IV, M (#5 on CC Datasheet) Safety - Type IV, J.A.O. Hammer - WMB (IBM) Sear - Type I, BOB (IBM) Hammer spring – 22 coil Trigger - S'G' (Saginaw Gear with notches) Slide - Type IV, UN (National Postal Meter) (Datasheet-E379A) Bolt –Flat with rounded lug, Type II, SG (Saginaw Gear) Firing pin – SG (Saginaw Gear) Extractor – SG (Saginaw Gear) Rear sight – Type II, Adjustable milled, H in shield Front Sight - Type I, Milled, N with ridge Recoil Plate - Type III unmarked |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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Hammer spring is a surprise. Is the TH N9 or N on one side and 9 on other?
For clarification on CMP guns. Some were as received and checked and graded. those that did not check out would have had parts swapped to make useable. The CMP used to sell parts so I am guessing some that could not be quickly swapped to spec would be broken down. CMP sold boltless barreled receivers. They would have a bolt pile and would try a few bolts from the pile. If it did not gauge then they were sold as boltless. Many of these were found to headspace with proper bolt. The CMP also would build up carbines from parts when the stock ran low. They even had stocks made (Boyds?) with a special CMP CC as they did not have enough nice stocks to complete carbines. Volunteers did the assembling. Some of them club members. When buying a CMP gun from someone else what you are taking in consideration is that the barrels receiver and bolt are within grade when sold from CMP. If someone in the chain of ownership changed the bolt you might have a headspace issue. Note that there were faked CMP certificates! Reminds me of a "white Bag" carbine that I once bought (and returned) seller stated that some parts may have been swapped out. Unfortunately I strongly believe that it was a far fetched exaggeration. Maybe the sear or another part was from a white bag. I do not believe the barrel and receiver came out of the bag together as it would not headspace. Even with a bolt I have that is a go to for checking maximum headspace. Buyer Beware! Bottom line a white bag should be as left arsenal. Looses all value IMO once parts are swapped. CMP cert from the CMP is comfort knowing it was checked and backed by the CMP. If buying from someone else you should have a reasonable expectation that the barreled receiver/bolt was checked by the CMP None of the above has any reflection on the OP post. As to the OP post, Many here including myself do enjoy correcting carbines. Nothing wrong with it as long as you are honest when selling. However I would urge caution to anyone reading this that if you have a otherwise original looking carbine with a part or two unexpected DO NOT SWAP ANYTHING OUT! Please go read "Expect the unexpected" in the newsworthy section. There is more value to a carbine that is "as left the factory" With all the undocumented or not found documentation of parts transfer those few parts may very well be correct! Heck, think of how many parts Sta Pro had brought in.
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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TH has N on right side, 9 on the left. I was surprised by the spring as well. Counted the spring coils 3 times and got around 22 +/-1/2 each time.
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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So here is an update on this post. I completed the data sheets on all 10 of my carbines. Looked them over and over and over again, then I lost all control and I have been moving parts around for the past week, I just kept thinking about what cali201 wrote above "I swap parts, there, I admit it. But I do so for MY enjoyment, I like to have Winchester parts in my Winchesters, etc., that is MY hobby. Never trying to pretend or build a "bring back". My carbines are my legos." I think I agree, besides they are my carbines and making them closer to correct is pretty damn fun.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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sling00
Hard Corps Joined: Apr 21 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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... and that's what matters most. Actually a friend of mine does the same with his Garands. Have a great day!
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