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Odd markings

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    Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 8:53am
New here so first hi to all and thanks for any help in advance. Over the years I've had many 30 carbines most had marking that I was aware off but this new one has me stumped. On the front of the trigger strap is stamped LGK-SR 1256. Odd location for stampings the trigger group is a late NPM 16 that looks like it was cleaned up ready for re parkerising and never got finished. Thanks for any help on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 10:21am
I'm guessing Austrian since I have a SG with a purple trigger housing with a LGK OO over 1680.   I would dare say sleeplessnashadow will come through for you like he did for me.   Stay tuned....

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Regards

Did you checkout the adjoining site? http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Armory.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 11:32am
Could they be LGK Sb above the 4 numbers?



If so, check the bottom of the barrel behind the front sight. There should be an import mark indicated as INTRAC over KNOX TN. It may be faint, sometimes removed.



Landes Gendarmerie Kommando, Land/State of Salzburg, Austria. INTRAC imported those from Salburg and Lower Austria in 1994. They were sold thru TN Guns and Centerfire Systems.

I have the inventory lists from Centerfire Systems for the ones they received from INTRAC. It allows me to tell if the trigger housing was just removed and put on another carbine. Also gives a few details about the parts on the carbine when it was sold.

If you'd prefer, if you send me the s/n via PM I'll check the list for you.

Jim

http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Salzburg.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pvc4440 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 11:52am
They are stacked like your picture and the trigger housing is a purple looking color. No import markings. No indication of removed import stamping. Would this be a plus or minas value wise for the trigger group. Thanks much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 12:50pm
You're in good hands with Jim.  He's great!

I'll admit I was not expecting the purple/plum trigger housing when I got my SG but Jim explained that to me as well.  Sit back and enjoy yourself!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 2:44pm
The purple/plum color on the trigger housing is related to the nickel content of the trigger housing. Metals were running short during the war so more nickel was approved in the manufacture of the trigger housings to free up a metal in shorter supply. The nickel content requires a higher temperature during refinishing.

Obviously there are folks who don't like their carbine having other than GI markings on it. One of the reasons I started and did all the research that gave birth to BavarianM1Carbines.com was to show there are those of us to whom the history of where a carbine has served also has value. This was in hopes of impacting the common practice of stripping them for their parts and in the process stripping them of their history.

The end result has been there's a niche amongst carbine collectors who have an interest in the carbines used by the police in West Germany, Austria and elsewhere. Depending on where it served and if it's preserved in the condition it was in when it served there there are those of us who will pay as much as any other collector for any other carbine.

The key is, is it in the condition and with the parts that were used on it when it served with the rural police in the rural areas of the State/Land of Salzburg. It also helps if it has parts original to it prior.

The challenge is it's simple for someone to have removed the trigger housing you have from the carbine it was on when it was used by Austria and it ended up on your carbine. Fairly common for this to happen. The trigger housing alone isn't enough to tell if the carbine it's on was the one used by Austria.

Almost all of the carbines used by the Gendarmerie in Salzburg were imported in 1994 by INTRAC of Knoxville, TN. A few, meaning very few, made their way back through returns to the U.S. Army by Austria that were passed onto CMP. That the barrel is absent the import mark is not a major factor as INTRAC did light import marks that were sometimes later removed. As well as CMP is not required and doesn't do import marks.

There are a couple of ways I may be able to verify it's condition and parts are as they were used by Austria. Knowing the serial number I have records I can check to see if it was sold by Centerfire Systems. We may also be able to determine if it was sold by CMP. The records are a complicated explanation of what they contain or don't contain. Best to address that if it's present and where it turns up.

Some folks don't like sharing serial numbers, some serial numbers aren't in the records. So another means of verifying if it's consistent with the gendarmerie in Salzurg is information. The best way is photos of the overall carbine from both sides, pics of any markings that are not U.S. manufacturer markings and pics of the finish on the various parts.

I've seen enough of the carbines used by the different agencies in Austria, particularly the gendarmerie in each land/state, that I can sometimes tell if a carbine is consistent with what was done by a particular country and specific agencies within that country. With my main area of experience being West Germany and Austria.

If the trigger housing was removed from the carbine it was on when the carbine was used by Austria it will diminish the interest of those who collect them or are interested in having them. Myself included.

But there's still the large number of people interested in carbines with higher value going to the condition they are in and the parts they have.

Value isn't as simple as who made it and the serial number. Folks who sell their carbines without providing more details and plenty of photos will likely not get for it what they could otherwise.

My offer is if you'll share the serial number, here or by private message, I'll check the records I have and let you know the results. It would also be of help to see photos of your carbine, particularly numbers anywhere other than on the receiver where they were put by the manufacturer. And the finish on various parts.

Once we've had a look at what you have then I and/or someone else can give you an idea of what it might be worth.

Salzburg fell within the American Occupation Zone in 1945. The U.S. Office of Military Government for Austria was in Linz, as was the HQ of the U.S. Forces in Austria. The gendarmerie in Salzburg received carbines during the occupation without the Russians being told and before any other areas in Austria, though parts of Upper Austria were also in the American Zone of control. The land/state of Salzburg was the heart of U.S. operations in Austria 1945 until the occupation ended in 1955. The police and gendarmerie there were treated different as they became part of our first line of defense had the Russians invaded.

The Austrian gendarmerie didn't work the cities. They worked the rural areas. Have a look at a map of Austria and you'll see most of the country is rural ... with lots of mountains. Our carbines were put to work by the gendarmerie.

Jim

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 3:25pm
An example of one man's junk being another man's treasure and value is in the eyes and mind of the beholder.

Inland s/n 744979
Barrel: SA 9-51

Assume it's completely rebuilt and you'd probably be close to the truth. Add to it it's a Century Arms import. From Guatemala in 2008. The first 4 pics were some of the seller's pics on Gunbroker. The last 4 I took after cleaning it up without altering anything but the dirt and grime of a life in a jungle environment.

















Look close at the last pic and below the stock line you'll see a few words peeking out. RAILWAY POLICE. One word is hidden by the stock: Stuttgart.

The "Railway Police" were instituted in West Germany in 1946 and gone by the end of 1947. They received U.S. carbines on orders from the U.S. Office of Military Government HQ in the I.G. Farben building in Frankfurt, not the land/state OMGUS offices in the various American Sectors. They were armed due to the thefts of U.S. and foreign aid being stolen from the freight trains in the larger railroad yards. The Railway Police patches are the rarest in the American Zone during the Occupation. Collector patches. Anyone know any railroad collectors and what they'll pay for rare railroad items?

I don't know how many were given to the Railway Police other than it wasn't hundreds as only the larger yards received them and then only a dozen or so at most (source was a German railway official) as they were mostly there as a deterrent. I know of only one other carbine someone has seen with the markings used by the Railway Police: Railway Police Nuremberg.

How the heck this thing found it's way to Guatemala only it knows. The rebuild wasn't done in Germany, not with a barrel dated 9-51. No U.S. arsenal rebuild marks on it. I can guess at how it went south but just guess.

That Railway Police Nuremberg carbine was an NPM in excellent condition. It has no import mark. Some parts are originals, some are not. Had I found it (seen 2007-2008) I likely would have paid more than anyone else but maybe not if they knew what I knew. If they do their homework now they'll know.

Read up on the Nuremberg Trials, when they were and how some of those on trial got to Nuremberg.

Some folks have zero interest in the history but some of us do and are willing to pay for it. Just don't post this on a Railway collectors forum. I don't wanna bid against those guys.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 5:38pm
From Guatemala in 2008.

How it got there ??

Jim,
Do you think it might have been returned to the US after the Rail road was finished with it.........
Then was rebuilt here in the states (SA Barrel date)
Finally ending up in the hands of the Guatemalans.
CAI getting it from them in 08?

Yeah that's it, I see it on page 526 of War Baby II, picture from Jan 82.

Or maybe part of a stash that Ollie had tucked away for the Contras' in Nicaragua that ended up finding its way to Guatemala. Ollie couldn't recall!

Just having fun, Sure appreciate all the hard work you do.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 7:35pm
Hi Charlie

The carbines were bought and paid for by the German land/states starting in 1949. Bavaria was a hold out so the new West German government paid for them at the end of the occupation in 1955 and handled Bavaria for us.

From 1945-1949 our personnel established a central armory in each land/state and staffed them with Germans. These armories handled all the weapons turned in and seized. They also received the carbines for the agencies in their land/state from our Ordnance depots in Western Europe after each land/states OMGUS HQ ordered them. They then oversaw the markings by their personnel as ordered by OMGUS and routed them to the various police agencies through OMGUS public safety officers.

Between 1946 and 1949 carbines came and went from these armories as some agencies had more or less than it was thought would be needed.

The carbines for the Railway Police went to them from the armory in the land/state the carbines were to be used in. The Railway Police were a bit of an enigma for OMGUS as the law of the occupation was de-centralization and no federal police. The no federal police stayed in affect until the occupation ended in 1955. The carbines and police status was ended when the regular police were online and armed and with a decrease in cargo thefts as things stabilized.

The carbines issued to the Railway Police went back to the armories they came from as U.S. owned weapons. When the Germans took over management of the armories on a land/state level in 1949 our troops moved out and took with them what was ours. This would be my first guess as to how they left Germany.

It's possible they remained in the armories and the federal government paid for them at some point. I have data on the payments, amounts, dates and quantities and all info points to each state/land paid for what they had been issued 1945-1949.

The records of the Military Assistance Program and Foreign Military Sales indicate Guatemala received 1,042 M2 carbines between 1951 and 1971, 121 carbines not indicated whether M1 or M2 1951-1963 then 5,000 M1 carbines in 1974. On the official records of the DoD. The DoD didn't report quantities provided to other U.S. agencies to Congress, which is who the stats were put together for.

Normally when we provided military assistance in the form of weapons we also supplied the spare parts to maintain them. Examples are the Austrian's in 1955 and the West German Bundeswehr in 1955. INTRAC received most of the unused spare parts from Austria but CMP also received some. Unused and still as new.

The stock on the above Inland had no rebuild marks. Rebuild marks were only done by stateside refurbishment and rebuild facilities. Of course the stock with the rebuild mark may have been swapped out or replaced at some point.

I have a buddy who is with a Christian group of police officers who travel Central and South America doing training for their officers. Guatemala was visited more than a couple times. On one of his trips in the 1990's he was taken into a warehouse used as an armory for the federal police and saw thousands of U.S. carbines piled up haphazard in a large pile on the floor. He described them as looking like junk. Obvious they had not been maintained but not uncommon in the Third world.

As I said, I can guess but only the carbine knows for sure. Maybe it was in one of the quiet weapons cache's our SF guys and the CIA built throughout West Germany and Austria for use by our SF people dropped behind Russian lines during an invasion. Austria was still finding a few into the 80's or 90's that our people didn't recover as they had others. Some had been pilfered but some were also intact. Austria had a major meltdown over them. Big news there in the land that only exports guns.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 28 2017 at 7:46pm
A P.S. ....

While I don't know the path the Inland took after being turned into an armory in Stuttgart I know the path that NPM marked Nuremberg Railway Police took. It was turned into the armory in Munich then sold to the Austrian Gendarmerie about 1955. They fielded it in one of their states. Turned it in by the early 1990's to the Bundeswehr who stored them as turned in (by agency) until INTRAC in 1994 then eventually to the U.S. Army and CMP. Big metal warehouse outside Vienna. INTRAC intended on importing them all but Clinton signed the assault weapons ban blocking their second shipment. Most of that second shipment ended up with CMP. About 3800 went to Euroarms in Italy who is still selling them. They got the ones used by Austria's Zoll Wache (border/customs enforcement).

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pvc4440 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 29 2017 at 5:47pm
Ok I'm back had to make a living. The SN # 993929  and the round bolt has a number 8639  Barrel and recever are inland no date on the barrel . The stock is a new one from CMP not marked. I bought this as a shooter so no bigge if it's not a Austrian bring back. The only thing I'd like to do to it is put on an original stock the new one is very nice but makes it look like one of the new copies. Thanks much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 5:21am
I assume you didn't buy it from CMP?

It's not on the Centerfire Systems lists. Wasn't in the first shipment the U.S. Army received from Austria and passed on to CMP.

The 8639 on the bolt was the last 4 digits of the receiver the bolt was originally with in Bavaria or Austria so it's not original to the carbine. The stock speaks for itself.

The second shipment CMP received of returns to the U.S. Army from Austria I don't have specifics on. CMP received them in the Spring of 2014. I was told there were about 1300 and no one was expecting anymore when these showed up. Austria indicated they were leftovers that had been used for spare parts by various gendarmerie state/land armories. Austria gathered them up after the first shipment.

They were missing parts, especially wood. They were built whole with the spare parts CMP had left from previous returns. CMP used their new carbine stocks to replace the wood after they ran out of GI surplus stocks. This is also the group that included a few with LGKSb markings.

Just a guess but it's consistent with those in the 2nd shipment. Not of interest to those who collect the carbines used by Austria. Probably not of interest to collectors either unless some of the parts are rare ones. Usually folks hang onto the CMP paperwork as it raises the value of a carbine. Never say never, never say always.

Unless there's something unique about it, it's probably in the $700-$900 value range. Depends on it's condition and the parts it has.

Hope this helps. Pics are still of interest but only if you are interested in knowing more.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 6:26am
FYI, in case you didn't know, the CMP will research a serial number to see if it was sold by them or DCM but their records are not complete.  It use to be free but now it's $25 hit or miss.  If interested here's where they discuss it...about a third of the way down the page.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pvc4440 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 9:26am
I have no Idea if it's a CMP rifle. The fellow I bought it from was straight up about the rifle. Said he bought it at a gun show with a ugly stock to him and bought a cmp off e bay. I also bought it from him at a gun show as he was walking in for $540 to have a shooter three years ago. My prize rifle is a IBM 10/43 that has been arsenal redone that now needs a stock if you know of one for an IBM out there that would be nice. I'm working on the picture part need to get a new camera mine is so old it doesn't work on my newer PC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pvc4440 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 10:07am
As an after thought I'd like thank you guys and the forum. I stepped away from collecting guns ,and comp shooting some 20 years ago. Sold off nearly everything gun wise I had. Then a friend came by with his newly bought M1 Garand with a feeding problem. Why'll working on his rifle he picked up my carbine and asked what was up with the funny numbers on it. That question brought me to you here. After reading almost everything on the site I could find about the carbine it came too me how much I missed about having one of these little guns or any gun and trying to find it's path in life. That was a joy I had forgotten and missed for a long time. Thanks for bringing it back at least for a little why'll
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