Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
|
Underwood United Shoe? |
Post Reply |
Author | |
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: Dec 16 2016 at 6:31pm |
Still learning here folks. I have an Underwood 2.5 with an S stamped just below the SN. I ran across another Underwood stamped with this S and it's being advertised as a "United Shoe" subcontracted gun. I had never asked what that may have meant B4, but now my interest is perked by this S.
Tell me all you know about United Shoe, or point me to a thread please. |
|
New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
4 subcontractors made receivers for Underwood.
Underwoods are my favorites. They also produced more types of parts in house than other manufacturers T code Intertype Corp 2.3 to 2.4 range W code by Universal Windings Co 2.4 range S code United Shoe Machine Corp 2.5 B code by Singer Mfg Co who 2.6 range |
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That confirms it...thanks!
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
What color is your receiver?
Barrel date? |
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Park. I have to make some assumptions about the barrel date. The gun has obviously seen an arsenal rebuild. Serial number is fresh, but the barrel stamp is missing the second digit in the month. It reads 1 -43. I want to say the second digit is a 2. I don't think the date range for that SN can let it be January 43. It has to be either 10, 11 or 12 and I lean toward 12 based on what I can make out.
|
|
Blackford Oakes
Recruit Joined: Dec 03 2016 Location: NE Georgia Status: Offline Points: 17 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Could it be that the receiver went unassembled until January?
It’s interesting how certain numbers on barrels wear quicker than others. My 6.12 Underwood is dated 3 - 44, but the first 4 is barely visible compared to the other two numbers.
|
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
During the rebuild, many of them are bead/sandblasted, some to a more serious degree than others I suppose. I've seen pictures of examples that almost had the SN obliterated. The barrel date on mine has always had me a bit puzzled. The first digit (1) is prominent, then there is a space between the 1 and the dash followed by 43, which is also very discernible. It almost seems as if it never had a second-digit? The production date-range for my 2.5 falls between July 43 and February 44. Those assigned serial numbers were from 2.3 to 2.9. Based on this, mine could not be a 1-43 and seemingly not a 1-44 since it's clearly stamped 43.
|
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
If there were records available as to how many guns were built on a monthly basis, I could likely pin-down the correct date for my Underwood barrel. Underwood was assigned 560,000 serial numbers between 2.3 and 2.9 beginning in July 43 running thru February 44. If they built 70,000 guns per month, my 2.5 would fall out somewhere in September. Having a clear monthly digit of 1, the assumption is that it would have to be 10, 11, or 12, so it can't be a 9.
|
|
Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Don't try and apply too much logic to the way Underwood built their carbines. Obviously, it started with the fact that they flip flopped two of their serial blocks, plus, they were known to have barrels lay around months further then you'd figure they would given the rate these carbines were built. Finally, oddball barrel date stampings on Underwood barrels are neither common nor uncommon based on things that have been seen such as misaligned numbers, incorrect numbers (10-49) and missing number from potentially worn dies.
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I have seen similar stampings on Underwoods. From light strike* to what looks like a missing number. I believe the dies had interchangeable numbers. It would not be cost effective to make a new die for every month. With that if the individual number had a shorter length then it would not stamp as deep. If longer it would be deeper and probably break or wear faster. As WhyCarbines pointed out the unusual 10-49 stamp where someone replaced the 3 with a 9. to err is human! As he also pointed out Underwood did not produce in number order. As a matter of fact one of the coded receivers was assembled in two groups. One with early barrels and one with very late barrels. If you give the first 3 serial numbers I can give an idea of what barrel dates have been seen in that range. Reason I asked the color is I have one with a green hue to it. Figured it was refinished until I came across another underwood with the same green hue. Edit to add, S coded receiver have been recorded with 8-43 to 1-44 barrels |
|
RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Dan, do you know how many were produced by each subcontractor? I've heard different numbers and the only thing I can find readily is in the back of War Baby II that says Singer made up to 120k, but then I've heard other numbers around 25k. |
|
-Neil
|
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
New2brass.....complete SN: 2588024
When I consider it...the finish does look a little "green-ish". |
|
New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
here are some pictures of what I am talking about the green color
|
|
tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I've always heard there were 50k of each made, but never researched it. The Singer B codes are the ones people rattle on about around here. Even people who
know nothing else about Carbines at my local shows seem to know that
Singer and IBM made Carbines. "Everyone made Carbines," they say, "even a sewing machine company." The S codes are sometimes mistaken by
these people for Singers. I never hear any hype about any other Underwood subcontractors. Don't think I own a W code.
|
|
floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I have taken mine out into the light, looked at it under house-lights and from every possible angle. To me "normal" Park would be some shade of gray and I definitely detect a hint of green, even what I'd call an OD Green. Mine is a definite mix-master and it has an SG Trigger Housing along with an IBM bolt and an SG recoil plate as well....all show a tinge of green to me. The innards of this bolt are blued.
I also have an .U. round bolt and IBM Trigger Housing. The bolt and it's innards are blued. The IBM TH is more of a darker Park. |
|
Post Reply | |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |