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Underwood United Shoe?

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floydthecat View Drop Down
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    Posted: Dec 16 2016 at 6:31pm
Still learning here folks. I have an Underwood 2.5 with an S stamped just below the SN. I ran across another Underwood stamped with this S and it's being advertised as a "United Shoe" subcontracted gun. I had never asked what that may have meant B4, but now my interest is perked by this S.

Tell me all you know about United Shoe, or point me to a thread please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 16 2016 at 7:49pm
4 subcontractors made receivers for Underwood.
Underwoods are my favorites. They also produced more types of parts in house than other manufacturers

T code Intertype Corp 2.3 to 2.4 range
W code by Universal Windings Co 2.4 range
S code United Shoe Machine Corp 2.5
B code by Singer Mfg Co who 2.6 range

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 16 2016 at 7:52pm
That confirms it...thanks!
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 16 2016 at 10:41pm
What color is your receiver?
Barrel date?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 17 2016 at 7:21am
Park. I have to make some assumptions about the barrel date. The gun has obviously seen an arsenal rebuild. Serial number is fresh, but the barrel stamp is missing the second digit in the month. It reads 1 -43. I want to say the second digit is a 2. I don't think the date range for that SN can let it be January 43. It has to be either 10, 11 or 12 and I lean toward 12 based on what I can make out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blackford Oakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 17 2016 at 8:29am
Could it be that the receiver went unassembled until January?

It’s interesting how certain numbers on barrels wear quicker than others.  My 6.12 Underwood is dated 3 - 44, but the first 4 is barely visible compared to the other two numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 17 2016 at 8:53am
During the rebuild, many of them are bead/sandblasted, some to a more serious degree than others I suppose. I've seen pictures of examples that almost had the SN obliterated. The barrel date on mine has always had me a bit puzzled. The first digit (1) is prominent, then there is a space between the 1 and the dash followed by 43, which is also very discernible. It almost seems as if it never had a second-digit? The production date-range for my 2.5 falls between July 43 and February 44. Those assigned serial numbers were from 2.3 to 2.9. Based on this, mine could not be a 1-43 and seemingly not a 1-44 since it's clearly stamped 43.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2016 at 9:57am
If there were records available as to how many guns were built on a monthly basis, I could likely pin-down the correct date for my Underwood barrel. Underwood was assigned 560,000 serial numbers between 2.3 and 2.9 beginning in July 43 running thru February 44. If they built 70,000 guns per month, my 2.5 would fall out somewhere in September. Having a clear monthly digit of 1, the assumption is that it would have to be 10, 11, or 12, so it can't be a 9.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2016 at 12:51pm
Don't try and apply too much logic to the way Underwood built their carbines. Obviously, it started with the fact that they flip flopped two of their serial blocks, plus, they were known to have barrels lay around months further then you'd figure they would given the rate these carbines were built. Finally, oddball barrel date stampings on Underwood barrels are neither common nor uncommon based on things that have been seen such as misaligned numbers, incorrect numbers (10-49) and missing number from potentially worn dies.
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2016 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

If there were records available as to how many guns were built on a monthly basis, I could likely pin-down the correct date for my Underwood barrel. Underwood was assigned 560,000 serial numbers between 2.3 and 2.9 beginning in July 43 running thru February 44. If they built 70,000 guns per month, my 2.5 would fall out somewhere in September. Having a clear monthly digit of 1, the assumption is that it would have to be 10, 11, or 12, so it can't be a 9.

 
I have seen similar stampings on Underwoods. From light strike* to what looks like a missing number.
I believe the dies had interchangeable numbers. It would not be cost effective to make a new die for every month.
With that if the individual number had a shorter length then it would not stamp as deep. If longer it would be deeper and probably break or wear faster.
 
As WhyCarbines pointed out the unusual 10-49 stamp where someone replaced the 3 with a 9. to err is human!
 
As he also pointed out Underwood did not produce in number order. As a matter of fact one of the coded receivers was assembled in two groups. One with early barrels and one with very late barrels.
 
If you give the first 3 serial numbers I can give an idea of what barrel dates have been seen in that range.
 
Reason I asked the color is I have one with a green hue to it. Figured it was refinished until I came across another underwood with the same green hue.


Edit to add, S coded receiver have been recorded with 8-43 to 1-44 barrels
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 24 2016 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

4 subcontractors made receivers for Underwood.
Underwoods are my favorites. They also produced more types of parts in house than other manufacturers

T code Intertype Corp 2.3 to 2.4 range
W code by Universal Windings Co 2.4 range
S code United Shoe Machine Corp 2.5
B code by Singer Mfg Co who 2.6 range



Dan, do you know how many were produced by each subcontractor? I've heard different numbers and the only thing I can find readily is in the back of War Baby II that says Singer made up to 120k, but then I've heard other numbers around 25k.
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 24 2016 at 6:33pm
New2brass.....complete SN: 2588024

When I consider it...the finish does look a little "green-ish".
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 27 2016 at 8:19pm
here are some pictures of what I am talking about the green color
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 28 2016 at 8:49am
I've always heard there were 50k of each made, but never researched it. The Singer B codes are the ones people rattle on about around here. Even people who know nothing else about Carbines at my local shows seem to know that Singer and IBM made Carbines. "Everyone made Carbines," they say, "even a sewing machine company." The S codes are sometimes mistaken by these people for Singers. I never hear any hype about any other Underwood subcontractors. Don't think I own a W code.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 28 2016 at 1:51pm
I have taken mine out into the light, looked at it under house-lights and from every possible angle. To me "normal" Park would be some shade of gray and I definitely detect a hint of green, even what I'd call an OD Green. Mine is a definite mix-master and it has an SG Trigger Housing along with an IBM bolt and an SG recoil plate as well....all show a tinge of green to me. The innards of this bolt are blued.

I also have an .U. round bolt and IBM Trigger Housing. The bolt and it's innards are blued. The IBM TH is more of a darker Park.
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