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M1A1 Cheekpiece Rivets

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sling00 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Oct 14 2016 at 4:01pm
Hello all,

Work and summer "honey do's" have calmed down some so I thought I would wipe down my carbines.  This reminded me of a question I have been meaning to ask since June.  The rivets on the cheekpiece of my M1A1 are partially missing, split, and seem to maybe be different sizes.  I have included a pic of each side of the rifle, the cartouches on the grip/stock, and close up of each side if the cheekpiece (pic 5 is the rivets).  Also for reference, the grip has the RI over 3 on the bottom.   The butt plate spring has the typical weakness and I thought someone or the arsenal may have been considering to replace it and started trying to remove the rivets but gave up. That's my best guess.

Any insights or comments are appreciated.  
  
Thanks











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m1a1fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 14 2016 at 7:41pm
A very nice example of a rebuilt RIA M1A1.  Thanks for sharing.  A must, IMO, for any para collector.  A few notes of interest.

Not wrong, but the ones I've seen have solid steel rivets like this:



Front of rivets: Note the concentric circles.



The rivets on yours are brass as evidenced by verdigris.  They are not sitting as flat as one would expect and it looks like the faces might have been painted.  Hard to tell but nice patina.  What does the black color on the front of the rivets look like to you?  The back of the rivets look pretty rough.  Maybe they were smashed?  You can see the marks left by peening around the edges of the rivets.

Not sure if you are asking what to do with the rivets.  If so, I would not clean them.  Just my opinion, but I like to leave nice patina alone.

What's also of interest is the type 1 band and flip sight.  Would expect those to have been changed at the arsenal.  No matter, it's a very nice example of an arsenal M1A1.
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Scott C. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott C. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 15 2016 at 1:45am
Early ones had brass rivets and late ones had steel rivets.  It looks like the leather on yours has been replaced. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 16 2016 at 6:45am
Helpful information about the OP's RIA M1A1 and M1A1's in general:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/modelM1A1.html

Concerning original M1A1's (both 1st and 2nd prods):

"Rivets during this time period were brass and later steel. Both were semi-tubular and were rolled over the plate on the inside. A few solid steel rivets have been observed. Brass rivets were often darkened with paint, and steel rivets were Parkerized."

Would think leather was also replaced if the arsenal had supplies to do so. I've seen numerous attempts to replace the leather with "home work". Difficult to do in a GI way. Would need skills in rivet rolling and a source of leather. Have read some have used old purse leather. Doing so usually stands out upon close inspection.

Concerning arsenal rebuilds like the OP's as shown above:

"Rotary safeties, adjustable rear sights, and barrel bands with bayonet lugs were standard Ordnance upgrades for all carbines.....Rivets used during the Inspect and Rebuild operations were brass. Some were marked 7/4 on their face. The rivets were semi-tubular and rolled over the plate on the inside. At least one facility contracted by Ordnance outside the USA (FN) is known to have used rivets obtained locally."

Lot's of possibilities, but it' still a great example of what some call a type 3 M1A1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 16 2016 at 5:07pm

I realize with the re-arsenal marked stock and what appears to be "as-issued" Inland B/R and trigger group, it is most likely not an arsenal issue.  It is S/N 890XXX which falls in the estimated S/N range used in the first production M1A1s so it does have that going for it.  Also based on all the dents and marks it appears the B/R and stock have been paired up for some time and the steel pieces of the stock are well patina'ed.  

OK, so I'll ask...What is meant by a type 3 M1A1?

Thanks for the info.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 16 2016 at 7:00pm
No doubts about the definition of a type 1 and 2. Lots of variety in a type 3 "arsenal" definition/value and it's a gun by gun evaluation. Hopefully I can describe it as it was described to me by the two people who I think of as the experts in M1A1's. What makes an M1A1 is the stock, not the B/A. If it's an original type 1 or type 2, it will have the proper Inland B/A and show no signs of changed parts or visit(s) to the arsenal..

Type 1
-Sometimes called a 1st prod
-All original as it left the factory
-Inland B/A only in the proper SN range

Type 2
-Sometimes called a 2nd prod
-All original as it left the factory
-Inland B/A only in the proper SN range

Type 3
-Arsenal - SA, Augusta, RIA, Ogden, Raritan and others.
-CMP M1A1's fit in this category somewhere but IIRC, I think the club judged a few of the returns as original, but not completely sure. Most CMP's M1A1's I've seen aren't marked but were listed as "parts possibly replaced" or something like that. Saw an RA-P M1A1 go for 4K IIRC, though I'm not sure why.

Type 3's with the correct Inland B/A are a plus. Some will have other B/A's in them and usually don't go for as much. Nothing wrong with either.

Type 4
-These are corrected/humped/restored M1A1's. Have seen pretty comical attempts at correction.

Type 1's and 2's go for the most but are very hard to find. The beauty of a type 3 is it can usually be had for significantly less than a type 1 or 2 especially if it has the "wrong" B/A.
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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 16 2016 at 8:17pm
Are there any pics of the riveting process/tooling in any publications? Especially interested in the brass machine process.

BTW, the M1A1 auctioned at CMP last Friday sold for $5500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 16 2016 at 8:38pm
I have looked although not sure there are many places left to do so.  Haven't found anything that either talks about how it was done or pics showing the machinery.  Machines are available on eBay.

Makes sense that a car company would use brake shoe rivets.  Throw in some brake lines and the tools necessary for rolling rivets.  Mix in the right dies/technique/pressure and presto, something that is very hard to reproduce.  Even if rolled correctly, the "correct" ones seems to differ than those from the arsenal or done as "home work".  Pure speculation on my part unfortunately.


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shadycon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadycon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 17 2016 at 8:19am
You can buy a rivet set tool ,Hanson tool Co. [I think] and use a drill press as an arbor press or very carefully tap them with a hammer and backing plate.
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